Dog ban outside school

[stivesholiday]

Recently our primary school has closed its gates to cars as our new head teacher wants to encourage as many of us to walk to school as possible.

Additionally, the new head teacher has changed the drop off and pick up rules, so that parents don't need to wait in the playground, they can do a quick wave goodbye and kiss in the morning. At the end of the day, as long as the teacher sees the parent waiting, the child can walk out of school.

Concurrently, there are a lot of people since the New Year that have gotten dogs. These factors combined mean that many more dogs are being walked to school as dog owning parents realise that if they walk the 20 mins to school and back twice a day, that it a fair chunk of their dog walking done; quite handy.

There are now around 15 dogs that are in the school area before and after school. They are not allowed in the playground, but the parents don't need to go in there anyway. So there are lots of dog owning parents waiting on the footpath behind the metal fence outside of school.

Some parents have complained that there are too many dogs at the school gate area and it is frightening for their children who are scared of dogs. These are not aggressive dogs, but many are puppies so are bouncy and they all want to play with each other.

I can see the perspective of the parents with small children that feel scared. They have put a petition together to ask the head to ban dogs from outside the school.

Am I being unreasonable to think that as long as the dogs are not in the school grounds, are not acting aggressively, are on a lead/under control, there is nothing that these parents can do, no matter what the petition?

I put my hands up to owning an 8 month old puppy. One mother asked me via Facebook to not walk my dog to and from school and I said no because I'm doing nothing wrong. I likened it to not wanting a strangers car parked outside your house but you can do nothing about it if they have paid their road tax.

Just to clarify (sorry I'm trying to imagine the layout) are there times when children have no choice other that to walk through a group of 15ish dogs in order to get in or out of school?

As long as there is no dog shit to dodge and a decent sized path for allergic or frightened people to pass then it's fine. It isn't ok for bouncy dogs to be approaching (unwiling) kids who cant take any other route to school. As for the mother asking you bit to walk your dog to school, some people really do think the world revolves around them!

The thing is, how can you ban dogs from a public footpath?

Is it just parents who will be banned or will random members of the public walking their dog also be banned from using the path between 8:30-9am and 3-3:15pm?

I can totally understand in the afternoon where there'll be lots of parents hanging around waiting, but if you're just posting a child through the gates without stopping and heading straight off down the path then it's just like walking past anyone walking their dog in the street

My dd1 has always been absolutely terrified of dogs. We have had incidents where she has panicked and almost run in the road before to avoid walking past one. Other dcs are all fine but poor dd1 was and still is petrified.

I think that as long as the dogs are on leads, well controlled/behaved and not blocking the whole pavement it shouldn't be an issue. I agree that the head teacher has no say in what happens out of school grounds.
It is unfortunately one of those things that some dcs will be scared but even if you avoid seeing any dogs outside school on a 'bad' day you might end up walking last 2 or 3 on your way home.

I love dogs but still wouldn't be keen on having to walk past 15 of them in a row on a narrow footpath every day.

OP, I really sympathise with you. The whole situation is creating a difficult atmosphere between the parents who drop off, which must make doing the school run a bit nerve wracking, if you aren't too keen on confrontation.

I think if I were you, I would carry on doing what you are doing, as long as your dog is behaving well. Keep him on a short lead when you are walking past children, is the best you can do, I think.

It's possible there may be an 'incident' where one of the dogs bounces at one of the dog phobic children, which may cause a clamp down, but until then I would go about my business as normal, if I were you.

I'm thinking there'll be smaller children in pushchairs at dog height. I'd not be happy pushing a buggy through a group of 15 dogs.

Agree with tiggytape Controlled exposure (or systematic desensitisation, as it's called) is one thing - in a safe environment, with a calm reliable dog, using incremental stages of approach, when the child knows they can remove themselves or have the dog removed if it becomes too overwhelming.

Forcing a child to confront a dog in the way suggested is called "flooding". It CAN be effective in overcoming phobias, with the support of a knowledgeable psychologist, but it is much more traumatic for the subject. It's usually used when the phobia is proving severely limiting (e.g. affecting employment or avoidance is putting the subject in dangerous situations) and a quick cure is needed, but it is less effective and there is a higher risk of the phobia spontaneously recurring.

And all that apart - it's for the parents to decide how and when their child will overcome their phobia, not the dog owners!

You sound incredibly selfish, I have a dog, I wouldn't dream of parking him outside a busy school gate where lots of parents and children have to walk past so closely. It must be very intimidating for young children to walk past large groups of dogs and terrifying for those with a fear of dogs. Why on earth would you force that on a child or that stress and frustration on their parents? That's unbelievably nasty.

My kid loves dogs and I have to watch her to make sure she doesn't lunge for them but I wouldn't want to walk past a group of inconsiderate dog owners in close proximity every day, I wouldn't trust people like you to keep them under control or properly train them, they are a risk.

I can't believe you think it's acceptable to intimidate and terrify young children. Disgusting.

I think at drop-off it's absolutely fine to drop the kids and keep walking (obviously with a dog on a short lead) which is what I do. Like it or loath it, dogs are a part of life and I really can't avoid my dog coming into contact with others. Presumably the main problem is at pick up where parents are standing outside waiting for their children? I can see how that might get a bit out of hand.Could you stand a bit further away and ask another parent to actually collect your child?

You'd all love me. I don't even have a kid at the village school and I take my dog there at school run and wait by the gate, though 10ft back. I meet up with quite a few others and then we walk together for an hour.

Leaving the dogs at home and walking them later wouldn't work. Many of the mums I meet are doing a dog walk before starting work mid morning. They won't have time to go home, collect the dog and walk again.

You may be "doing nothing wrong" but there is always room in life to be considerate about other people.

I think it is only reasonable to ask people to keep dogs well away from the school gates. I quite like dogs, but I don't want particularly to have to dodge several lively dogs on the way to collect my kids.

For my daughter it would be a nightmare - she is terrified (having been knocked off her scooter by an ever so friendly out of control and massive puppy when she was small, her friend was also attacked by a dog in the street and has a permanent scar). I'm doing best to make her more comfortable around dogs but that would not help.

I hate it when people say they hate dogs, if you've been bitten by one etc then it's understandable but when people just hate them for no reason it really gets to me. Only a small proportion of dog owners don't properly train their dog, or pick up their poo or look after them properly. But the majority are responsible and why shouldn't they be allowed to walk them on the school run? If you or your child is scared of dogs then that's a problem that you need to address, you can't just avoid them forever.

Unlike a dog, my child has to actually go to the school. Taking a dog is entirely optional. don't do it if it's a problem.

what I don't like about dog owners is that they think their dogs are special. "my dog wouldn't bite" etc etc. Well, dogs bite because they are dogs. And then they let them run around a park. the dog may in fact not bite and be entirely friendly, but a friendly playful excited dog can be pretty scary for a small child. And you'll hear, "oh he won't bite, he's being playful". well, i don't give a crap. put him on a leash.

I get that you may (or anyone else) may love your dog. I don't and likely many other people don't. Keep it away from me.

Actually after reading more.

YABVU.

In fact 15 adults and 15 dogs intimidating small children has to bo antisocial behaviour ie acting in a manner that has "caused or was likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress to one or more persons not of the same household".

There you go OP you are doing something wrong and the HT might not be able to stop you but he/she might ask someone else to intervene.

'but there is always room in life to be considerate about other people.' Well said. And those against have no choice in being there every day, but there is a choice about the dogs.

The police are never going to give someone an asbo for being with a dog on a public pavement as long as the dog is snarling and lunging at people. Never.

Can you imagine the daily mail sad face photos?

I think saying that people are guilty of antisocial behaviour for walking dogs which aren't misbehaving is way over the top. But par for the course on an MN hysterical dog thread.

I take it there are two ways out of the gate, left and right.

How about the parents who have children who don't want to walk past 15 dogs go one dog free way and all the parents with the bouncy yapping dogs are kept all on the other side, so that there is an option for everyone which suits.

Legally you are right OP the ht cannot stipulate what you do with your dog on a public pavement, but that doesn't mean you are right to assert those rights in the face of such strong objections from parents your child is in school with.

For everyone's sake being a little bit less defensive and assertive about your rights and being a little bit more interested in your responsibilities as a parent of a child in the school might be the thing.

Your child is in school with other children. These things can influence how your child gets on with the other children. Think about it.

Viva

But this isn't one person walking a dog is it?

What so someone won't get an asbo if they're on their own, but if 14 other people who they have no control over are there then they all get an asbo?

Its not going happen. Not if the dogs are well behaved. There's a test of reasonableness to any charge of being likely to cause alarm or distress.

Otherwise I might say that seeing my neighbour wearing shorts distresses me. Are the police going to tell him he can't wear shorts as its antisocial? I don't think so.

So they have to consider if its reasonable to think the average person will be distressed by a group of dogs on leads, under control and behaving themselves. I think the answer would be no.

My DD spent most of her younger years terrified of dogs but dogs are a fact of life and (providing they are under control and the owner picks up poo) they have as much right as my DD to go out and about.
I'm not a dog lover, my DD is now ok with dogs but she'd rather not go too near.

But how on earth the Head can propose this . Mind boggles.

DS is scared of dogs because a selfish dog walker let her dog jump up at him because it was a "friendly" dog. He was fine with them until then.

For a child who is scared of dogs having to navigate past lots on a narrow path isn't nice.

Nutty intolerant attitude eh? Lovely.

Sounds pretty stressful for the dogs, apart from anything else.

I have taken my new puppy into school grounds (carried in my arms) and although it was lovely to see him petted and fussed over by lots of excited dog-loving kids, it was probably quite overwhelming for him and not the positive socialisation experience I'd imagined.

I realised quite quickly we would have to re-think the idea of walking him with us on the school run. Too much going on for me to concentrate on training him, and however delightful the puppy, you can never guarantee a young dog won't jump up or bark at anyone. Why put yourself and the dog through it? Take them to places where they are welcome, and you can enjoy them.

Should schools ban anything that a child at tge school has a phobia about? I had a phobia of umbrellas ( it is slightly better now but I would never choose to walk under/near one) should they be banned if a child at the school had a similar phobia?

It's horrible to have a phobia but I don't think you can expect the world to change to accommodate you. It sounds like the parents who are anti dogs are making the situation much worse for their own children by over reacting to dogs all of which I assume are family pets and therefore very safe with children.