Dog ban outside school

[stivesholiday]

Recently our primary school has closed its gates to cars as our new head teacher wants to encourage as many of us to walk to school as possible.

Additionally, the new head teacher has changed the drop off and pick up rules, so that parents don't need to wait in the playground, they can do a quick wave goodbye and kiss in the morning. At the end of the day, as long as the teacher sees the parent waiting, the child can walk out of school.

Concurrently, there are a lot of people since the New Year that have gotten dogs. These factors combined mean that many more dogs are being walked to school as dog owning parents realise that if they walk the 20 mins to school and back twice a day, that it a fair chunk of their dog walking done; quite handy.

There are now around 15 dogs that are in the school area before and after school. They are not allowed in the playground, but the parents don't need to go in there anyway. So there are lots of dog owning parents waiting on the footpath behind the metal fence outside of school.

Some parents have complained that there are too many dogs at the school gate area and it is frightening for their children who are scared of dogs. These are not aggressive dogs, but many are puppies so are bouncy and they all want to play with each other.

I can see the perspective of the parents with small children that feel scared. They have put a petition together to ask the head to ban dogs from outside the school.

Am I being unreasonable to think that as long as the dogs are not in the school grounds, are not acting aggressively, are on a lead/under control, there is nothing that these parents can do, no matter what the petition?

I put my hands up to owning an 8 month old puppy. One mother asked me via Facebook to not walk my dog to and from school and I said no because I'm doing nothing wrong. I likened it to not wanting a strangers car parked outside your house but you can do nothing about it if they have paid their road tax.

OP you're not exactly helping the stereotyping of dog owners as inconsiderate and selfish are you?

Obviously there is a strong feeling at the school that there is a problem with too many dogs at pick up time. You don't have to bring your dog on the school run, you just want to. You are the one being selfish here. Find another time to walk your dog.

That's often the case with things requiring regulation though.

Just saying that where i live we are terrorised by kids who cause more problems than dogs...and i mean from huge "gangs" of 4-17 year olds...

I realise its generalising about the crap area where i live but it seems to me that some (and i stress some!) parents make a fuss at school gates but let their own kids act like animals after school.

Fair enough, but ultimately both need dealing with.

To be fair, trixymalixy - as someone who really CBA with dogs, I've always found most dog owners are entirely sensible, considerate people.

There are a number within my family, all of whom would base a decision as to whether to take their dog on the school run, or into any busy public space, on 'is my dog sufficiently well-trained to not annoy other members of the public who don't find him as adorable as I do?'

Going 'yah boo sucks they can't stop me doing it' is the provenance of a particular type of dog owner IME.

Sorry OP, I'm a dog owner but I think that you and the other dog-owning parents ABU. You're putting your convenience - not having to take your dog out for a separate walk - over the comfort and well-being of a number of children.

I've had dogs all my life and no way will 15 dogs in a small space, many of them young, always remain calm and docile. I can guarantee that some will get over-excited or frustrated at not being allowed to play, one or two will be badly trained and will pull/refuse to sit, a couple will take a dislike to each other and growl/lunge if they get too close, and occasionally something will set at least some of them off barking. Any of those things happening will be terrifying for a small child nervous or scared of dogs. And I simply won't believe you if you deny it, because that is standard canine behaviour when that number of dogs is allowed to congregate in a confined space.

shouldnthavesaid Fear is always irrational? Er, no.

Unfortunately raven, you don't generally notice the considerate dog owners as the dogs aren't bothering you, but it's the ones that are causing a problem that stick in your memory and ruin things for the majority of considerate dog owners.

On the one hand, no, you're not doing anything "wrong". But on the other, 15 dogs is an awful lot to encounter every day of school, whether in the playground or outside. I don't think your attitude that the non-dog owners brought it on themselves is very sympathetic.

Why not get together with the other dog owners and suggest some preemptive action like nominating a dog-gate and a non-dog gate as suggested upthread? Or if there's only one, agree a side of it for the dog owners to stand.

That way at least everyone has two options:
Dog avoiders- put up with the dogs or use the non-dog route
Dog owners- leave your dog at home or use the dogs-allowed route.
At the moment only the dog owners have options, everyone else has to like it or write to the HT lump it.

Fgs. Not everyone likes dogs. Some do some don't. I have 2 dd's. One is not keen on unknown dogs and would prefer to avoid them. the other has had to be trained not to be over familiar, is aslig the owner before approaching etc. Their approach to dogs isn't something I put there it is part of who they are.with both dd's I have taken steps to encourage them to interact in a safe way with animals.
People who blame me for my dd's fear of dogs really really get my goat.

I have a dog who my dc and I love dearly. However she is bouncy and it is easy for me to see that this can be distressing for small children. So I don't take her to school pick up. It is a no brainer. I would have hated for primary children to be compelled to walk through a group of dogs to get to and from school. This is really unfair on anxious children who may be using every ounce of bravery they have to get in the school hate anyway.

Hate = gate

When my son was three, a stray dog ran into the house as we were getting ready to go out. Luckily it had a collar, else I couldn't have caught it in time when it lunged at his face, presumably to bite (it was confirmed later that it was an unpleasant unfriendly dog). Unfortunately, the animal, which to my son was larger than a horse is to me, has caused a fear that has persisted for over three years now, despite many instances where I have introduced him to dogs.

What hasn't helped over the years, is leashed dogs that their owners allow to sniff or jump up at people as they pass. This, unfortunately, is often with dogs that are around his face height.

Think of it this way - you are on a walk, and someone with a horse on a lead, with its head around your face height brings it past you. It shoves it's face in your genitals, licks you on the cheek and if you are super lucky, and it's "ever so friendly", jumps up or gives you enough attention/love to move you from where you stand. The owner then reassures you that it won't bite (like that probably isn't on your mind already) and then lets the dear creature carry on giving it leash space to do so.

Incidentally, OP, you could also consider perhaps that some of the people that move away as your oh so friendly puppy comes to say hi, could be allergic to dogs and trying to avoid contact?

Hopefully this has helped a little to show the perspective of some of those parents.

Yanbu. Yes not everyone likes dogs. I don't like people smoking or swearing around my toddler should those things also be banned?

I imagine if the school insists all parents go into the playground that many dog owners will just tie their dog outside the school and there will be hoards of unaccompanied dogs which surely would be worse.

It's ok to dislike dogs/smoking/swearing, it's not ok to dictate what other people do on public property.

And it's okay to like dogs/smoking/swearing, but it's not okay to force others to put up with your dog/cigarette smoke/language when they have no choice in the matter and are unable to avoid it.

There has been a lot of talk about "legal rights" on this thread; perhaps a little more acknowledgement that with rights come responsibilities would be useful. If you want to continue to exercise your "legal right" to take your dog into a public space, you need to also exercise your responsibility that it is not allowed to become a nuisance or intimidating to other people. As this and every other dog thread shows, there are plenty of people who would like to restrict or ban dogs from the majority of public spaces, and if that day ever comes, we responsible dog owners won't be blaming them, we will be blaming the irresponsible owners who were too ignorant or arrogant to understand that dog lovers have to co-exist with non-dog lovers, and we antagonise them at our peril.

So yes, the OP may currently have the "legal right" to stand with her dog on the pavement, but if she and her fellow dog-owning parents don't acknowledge their responsibilities and show a little consideration for others, she may find that doesn't remain the case forever.

I very very much doubt that in the UK a blanket ban on dogs on pavements or public paths is ever going to happen.

The problem is that the pure presence of dogs is offending people, I agree that dogs who bite should not be at the school gate actually I don't think they should be alive but people who dislike dogs just because they are dogs are the ones with the issue.

My dog never does the school run, if these dog owners think 2 school runs a day constitutes s large part of the dogs walking time done and dusted I would say they are walking the dogs too little. Its fairer on everyone dogs included to take humans on the school run and dogs on a dog walk.

The head is absolutely right to ban dogs on school grounds. This has been the case in every school I've taught in, there is no reason for a dog ever to be on school grounds.

It seems, from OP's description, that the path is quite narrow so DCs and parents have to walk through a gauntlet of dogs and owners. If I had DCs at the school I wouldn't be happy about that either. I can't tell if a dog is likely to lunge at a child from looking at it and, frankly, I don't trust many dog owners to keep them under control. "He's only being friendly!"

It's selfish of the dog owners to do this. On a path that narrow a dog could easily snap at a child and make contact.

The head has a variety of ways in which she could stop this, as has been said upthread, if the majority of parents find this situation unacceptable.

The current situation may be legal but it's antisocial and selfish.

I hope the head finds a way to make sure this doesn't continue.

ikea I'd like to think so, but you only have to see the vitriol and strength of the anti-dog feeling on the majority of dog threads to know that there are a lot of people who would like to see that happen. I'm sure if you'd asked smokers 30 years ago they would have laughed at you for suggesting smoking would be banned in pubs. If you are a member of a minority with an anti-social habit - and much as I love them, I can see that dogs are anti-social; they smell, they shit, they shed hair, they cause allergies, and sadly some of them go beyond "anti-social" into "dangerous" - you have to acknowledge that freedom to enjoy your "habit" only remains so long as the rest of the population are inclined to put up with it, and I feel - I hope I'm wrong - that the tide is starting to turn against dog lovers because of the inconsiderate behaviour of the minority who allow their dogs to shit everywhere, to jump up at people, to pester people off-lead - and to make an everyday task like walking to school an act of running the gauntlet of "Dog Alley".

The problem is the minority of people who think that eg their large bouncy dog nipping and snapping at a two year old is no problem, he's just a lively dog.

If there had been any real damage we would have taken our son to a&e. We didn't, therefore it follows that what happened is absolutely fine!

I think the slightly bonkers attitude that many British people have about animals especially dogs will prevent a public dog ban. The charities dedicated to animals and people adopting badly behaved dogs in my opinion shows that many people regard dogs as more important than humans.

Select is spot on when talking about behaviour of dogs forced to wait together in small space.

Ds isn't at school yet but we have a dog and live on same street as school. I always cross the road if it's school kicking out time. I just don't think it's great to walk dog,face height to small children, through busy, chaotic crowd when easily avoidable. Kids are unpredictable. So are dogs. Not great combination in an excited atmosphere.

As for these children who are scared of dogs and being encouraged to walk - what happens if they pass a dog or three on the route home and how is encountering them by the school gates any different???

You can't see the difference between one dog walking past and a pack of 15 waiting?

And yes they are a pack, dogs are pack animals.

I can see both sides, that the dogs need to be walked and that children who are in families with dogs probably want the dog to walk with them too.

What about muzzles? Would you and other parents be prepared to muzzle your dogs near the school? This would prevent any possible biting of children and children who are scared of dogs can be told the dog can't bite them.

At ds's school the headmaster's dog wanders round the school site all day, the kids love it!
I can't see how dogs can be banned anymore than smoking can be banned at the school gate if it's not on the premises.

I would imagine that, with 15 dogs there, there are a fair few people who have had a "friendly puppy" scrabbling at their legs, or approaching their small child, or barking in the face of their toddler. It only takes a couple of things to happen to a handful of people, and you have quite a lot of complaints.

I'm not scared of dogs, and neither are the DSs, but I guarantee that if a large dog ran up to DS2 when he was walking with his brother to the school gates, there'd be hysterical screaming, just because of the shock of a large, panting creature rushing at him.

I also wouldn't want to have a dog flapping around me, not matter how friendly it was. I used to live near a dog-walker who always yelled 'don't worry, he's friendly" as his badly-trained dog jumped up at my legs and laddered my work tights for the umpteenth time, as I walked to the bus-stop.

The school's primary concern is the children who attend. The HT might not be able to enforce a ban, but refusal to move the dogs is likely to lead to a huge amount of ill-feeling.