16 Kids and Counting

[Shinyfly]

So I've just watched this (recorded last night). AIBU to think that both of these couples just have stopped at one or two?

These were (just a couple) of the red flags for me.

1. The first family had 11 kids (number 12 made an appearance at the end of the programme). All of their children were home schooled and the only time they were permitted to mix with other children was once a week at boys/girls brigade. Mum Tania has a three year plan to have them living in the country and even more isolated from society very soon.

1. The second family were completely devoid of any rules/routines/boundaries, the house was complete chaos with children sleeping in their clothes and the older children being made to supervise the younger ones homework. Dad's clothes were always filthy.

Bth families seemed intent on having more children.

I'm not sure whether having 16 kids, and being not being able logistically to get them to school and so on, is actually the best reason to homeschool.

I think to successfully homeschool 16 kids you are looking at a massive undertaking. Every homeschooling argument about individualised education goes out of the window. I honestly do not see the educational benefit. You might choose it for other reasons (religious or social) but I would struggle to see how you could argue that the kids were getting a better educational deal.

Even the autonomous types I know still actually spend a lot of time with their kids. Autonomous/unschooling sorts can actually be very, very pushy in their own way ("Xavier! You've seen a bee! B...E...E...Would you like to know everything there is to know about bees? Here, I'm going to do a bee dance for you-but you don't have to join in, remember, its your choice.").

Some of (IMO) the best examples of HE I have ever seen involved large families.

They used a school at home approach split into groups dependant on ability for direct teaching had two adults teaching,outsourced for science and drama.used loads of activity centers and clubs.

All the children are now adults have good qualifications and decent jobs and a well adjusted decent people who had some incredible opportunities growing up.

Some of the (IMO) worst examples involved 1/2 kids who (again IMO) were just CME and had parents who couldn't be arsed to put down the vodka and get out of bed

Well yes, I think if you basically have a school in your own home then I can see how it could work.

But how on earth is that workable for most large families? Two adults at home, plus outsourcing which presumably was paid for? Where did the money come from to finance this?

The beauty of HE for me lies in the flexibility and the richness of experience. The ability to go rockpooling and a bit of geology at the beach or lie on our backs and identify clouds. I don't really see how that's doable with 16 kids, I'm afraid.

You're looking at a 1:16 ratio much of the teaching time, I expect. But add into that the fact that the age range of the kids will be huge, so you're looking at a VERY mixed age range.

I've delivered drop in workshops for all ages (that's actually where I first encountered HE ;-) ). With that age range what you do is aim at just above the bottom. You cannot deliver something that really challenges anyone, because if you do it will be too hard for the youngest, but also,you need everyone working independently. So its fun stuff, no depth.

I also suspect there is a lot of childcare from the older ones. All the HE families I know with a gap of more than about 10 years between oldest and youngest use the older kids for (unpaid) childcare to a point that I personally am about. I think a bit of it is fine in the context of a busy life. But I know several kids who are expected to get up in the night with younger siblings, for example, and actually I don't think that's on.

Actually I am being a bit unfair.

I'm not saying I don't think a family with 16 kids can't homeschool well. I don't really see what the point of homeschooling those kids is over sending them to the local school but I don't know all their circumstances.

What I do feel is that keeping the kids at home because the logistics of getting them to school are too much is not a positive reason to homeschool and does not fill me with hope for the quality of their education . But to be fair, I don't know that that's the family's position, rather its a view expressed on here.

The two adults were a parent and another family member (parents owned own business and worked both education and business as a sort of job share) one family used mother and father in law as dad was a high earner working miles away.

Everything was self funded they clearly decided it was a expense worth doing, but then even school has associated costs its just what you choose to prioritise for your own family. Some people don't respond well to flexibility some do,that's the beauty of HE you get to do it how ever you want.

Re childcare, I do not use my older children for baby sitting, none of my children have ever got up in the night to deal with the younger ones expecting them to do so would not even cross my mind.the closest I ever get to any child looking after another would be if I have a shower and ask one to tap on the shower screen if one of the two littlest wake up.

One of my adult children will occasionally take a few into town to pick me a gift but its not asked for or expected and if they do it it usually means I pay for my own birthday gift sometimes I may get a call saying its xyz's kids birthday party on sat they have said I can bring (insert child of near age) is that ok,of course I say yes.

Actually, from my knowledge of homeschooling, its recommended for large families rather than small because of the isolation factor.

The reasons should not matter as long as you meet the obligations required.

Some people think using schools is abdicating and shirking your parental duty and responsibility.

Some are just very anti schools (I'm sure you have seen some of the sheepie comments in HE forums made by some of the more vocal anti schoolers)

Some do it because they think its a nice idea

Or because of unsupported SEN or disability or bullying or because the nearby schools are crap or because they don't like the class sizes.

So many reasons most are none of anybody else's business and what right do we have to pass judgement on the reasons for doing it when it is actually being done?

I know some of the self professed guru experts like to think they should but in my own head I like to think that's more to do with their own issues than anybody else's (and unless you regularly boast that you run a support forum with in excess of 3000 members and everybody has to do it your way or they are crap,then I'm not talking about you)

What I want to know is, how do the Sullivan's keep the white sofas so clean ? They look like washable covers, but even so.

Should have been a .

I think its a tricky one. All kids, homeschooled ones included, are members of the society I live in and I do think its reasonable to take an interest in them. I am concerned about schools even though we are not currently using them. I am concerned with provision for SEN although none of my kids have additional needs. I campaigned to legalise same sex marriage although I am married to a different sex partner. I am concerned about prisons, even though I hope never to be using one (no I am not equating schools with prisons).

Therefore I think its reasonable to be interested in why people are HEing, if it impacts on how their kids are brought up.

One reason that hasn't been mentioned for HEing, that does disproportionately apply to homeschoolers with larger families, is fundamentalist Christianity. The quiverfull movement, basically. No quiverfull is not as prevalent among homeschooling in the UK, but its not unknown. (and just to be clear, I am NOT saying that all large families or even all large Christian families are quiverfull).

I don't personally agree with the teachings of the quiverfull movement and I am uneasy about arguing for the rights of homeschoolers to perpetrate quiverfull ideas. For me, they conflict with other things which are too important to me. Teaching kids tolerance, teaching our girls that they are for more than raising kids and marrying. Teaching children that homosexuality is not wrong, that love is love.

I absolutely support homeschooling as an option for everyone and will defend it against criticism based on lack of knowledge. But that doesn't mean I will defend every homeschooler against any criticism whatsohever. I don't support people's right to teach their kids to hate others in society. I don't support people's right to teach their kids sexist ideas. That's about kids' rights to learn about their world. I don't believe personally that there is an easy solution to this. I am not saying that I would stop these people from homeschooling, for example.

But I will certainly, personally, speak out where I see it rather than supporting them because, like me, they are homeschoolers. I do NOT want to be conflated with fundamentalist right wingers, just because we have both made the same educational choices. I do not consider myself to have anything whatsohever in common with the Duggars, for example, aside from our choice of educational method.

Abuse happens in the homeschooling community. It happens everywhere. Personally, I think we'd be much better as a community if, rather than defensively shouting "No! No abuse here! How dare you!", rather listening to people's concerns, understanding where they come from, and having a dialogue.

(although I am with you on the subject of irritating gurus. There's at least two I can think of...)

re the gurus. I think that's like any other cultish movement. But I've seen those forums and they are the nastiest, most bitchy, places I've ever seen. Watching a thread there is painful. If someone disagrees - over something like, I dunno, using the word "homeschooling" not "home educating" in the UK (because that REALLY matters ) they will end up always capitulating, saying "you are all so right now, I see the light" and begging the group forgiveness.

Its like watching a cult hazing ceremony. I find it interesting that the parts of homeschooling that are meant to be about freedom and independent thought are so publically dominanted by people who are only interested in doing it their way, and are so VERY nasty to anyone who disagrees.

I have a sneaking thought that you are I are thinking of the same group!

I think I could guess as to the group, too!

Some of the anti school stuff is very scary. Lord help you if you admit to accepting annual visits from the local authority. And more general paranoia about contact with their children and officials/professionals (E.g. health visitors)

And usually autonomous education also (which can be great if done well)

Yeah-I have NO problem with autonomous education, unschooling, radical unschooling, whatever. Its not for me but each to their own. I'll defend another's right to do it. TBH it seems like much harder work than just whipping out the workbooks for a few hours each morning, which is what we do. And the constant angst about "connection" and "joy". Christ, it sounds laboured.

But my god. How on earth do people get off on being so nasty? So downright mean? I have NEVER seen behaviour like this outside a playground.

And this constant, cultish, evangelical obsession with joy! All the time. So patronising. There is nothing "radical" about being a rude bully. It feels almost sadistic, this "we're tearing you down for your own good" stuff. Seriously, that's how cults work. I find it deeply unsettling that adult women are behaving in this very approval seeking way over their children's education.

I'm talking about one main, very vociferous guru, by the way, but a few different groups. But I've also had the experience of disciples of this particular guru invading other groups I've been on to drum up support. Its crazy! I make my own decisions for my family and could never stick a simple label on us, but if you want to follow this woman, do it. But don't throw your personal morality out of the window and don't try to convert ME!

As someone who is a very pragmatic homeschooler it leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth, tbh.

I believe that yes we are indeed talking about the same thing.

Apparently if you even think about accepting LA visits your children will be taken into care.

It makes me cringe every time a new home edder looks that way for support

sig

Check your pm's

Ah yes!

I was thinking about the main group, but yes appears to have pervaded other groups also.

There should be more respect and acceptance of the educational choices and teaching/facilitating (etc) methods of others.

ah no I don't mean the anti LA one though she's bloody irritating too.

I mean the american one.

Generally I think more in the way of hobbies and interests might be needed among some home edding parents.

I'm not a career HErs, but I really don't get how people have time to start getting all unctious about whether people say "home ed" or "homeschool". Perhaps I am seriously missing a trick.

I actually forgot there were several of them.

Its a shame really as in real life, most homeschoolers are properly lovely.

unctious? not sure how I got that one, Freudian slip perhaps. I mean officious.

The one I'm thinking of gets really arsey about HS instead of HE as well,from what I can tell the group in its title does not claim to be anti LA but its a new rule of being a member that you can't accept the visits or be supportive of anyone who does.

And her and her minions are of course the only people who can possibly write a response letter because nobody else is competent enough to do it themselves.

Your going to have to pm me the initials of who your meaning as surely there can't be 2!

I've been involved in different ways with HE and HE support services for over 35 years and I still don't get the problem if people choose to have school at home and call it that

lol pm'd you. Yeah I'm aware of that group. They seem like an interesting bunch but then there is ANOTHER group which is all about replying to them...Christ do these people not have, I dunno, goldfish to feed?

Years and years ago when this topic started a poster called cod (assume she's now left or namechanged) leapt on the new topic and posted "Home ed! No, said Ed, I won't go.". And ever since then, I have not quite been able to take Home Ed seriously...

I think what's going on on the group you mention might be that its been a while now since there has been a serious legal challenge to HE and everyone is getting bored.

Oh yes and that is the group that has its own card? Which is an entire can of exceedingly dull worms too, it seems.