To think Gary Barlow is worse than a benefits cheat?

[Roshbegosh]

People cheating on benefits do at least need the money .... What he has done is hard to excuse IMO

Leaving aside the fact that one is illegal and one isn't, benefit cheats are immoral because they are stealing at the same time as giving nothing. They are the lowest people in society because they are criminals that we have no need for.

And for all those others making swipes at people who rightfully receive benefits, you would do well to read that well known benefit recipient JK Rowling's thoughts on the subject.
www.gingerbread.org.uk/content/1901/J-K-Rowling

YABVVVVVU. That is all.

WooWoo - Whereas the vast majority of working people on PAYE (including really high paid ones) have no choice whatsoever on paying the correct amount of tax even if they think it is being spent unwisely no matter what government is in power. Why should non-PAYE people have this choice?

They should be acting within the law with their tax bills and invested money should have the intent for the furtherance of business, not investing in artificial schemes with intent only to create tax advantages.

Did he know what he was doing - well there is that old saying
"If it looks to good to be true......"

YABU.

Anyone who has paid millions in taxes and employs others is an asset.

He, and others, are paying your tax credit/child benefit etc

The two are not comparable.

Doesn't come close to the likes of Jimmy Carr who knowingly paid virtually no tax for years.

I think if you were very wealthy and had paid half of your earnings in tax for years, you might try it on too.

How much tax have you chipped in so far OP?

Thing is though, at the time, it was totally within the law. It's only retrospectively hmrc decided to challenge it

WooWoo AFAIK GB donates money to the Tory party, so atm he should have faith in how the money he pays is being spent.

He, and the rest of them, haven't paid what they should because they are greedy. Nothing more and nothing less.

GB should have read this:

www.hmrc.gov.uk/avoidance/tempted.pdf

He, and the rest of them, haven't paid what they should because they are greedy. Nothing more and nothing less.

^ This ^

Maybe the very wealthy would be less inclined to agree to legal reductions in their tax bills if they had some faith that the money they pay would be spent more wisely than it currently seems to be.

Anyone who has paid millions in taxes and employs others is an asset.

Laughable. Most public spending goes on capitalism's support services - protecting property, infrastructure, delivering legions of workers into the system. A large chunk of what we call 'benefits' are paid to people in work, who are not paid a living wage. Ie a direct subsidy to corporations, an indirect subsidy of the super rich. The whole fucking system is set up to support them. The proof is in the pudding, eh?

LeapingOverTheWall it was never within the law. It wasn't tested. When the law a took a look
it was deemed unlawful.

I fail to understand why anyone is kicking up a fuss about an individual seeking to minimise his tax bill through a scheme which was, at the time, a legitimate way of doing so.

Are you honestly telling me that if you could legally pay less tax you'd refuse on some kind of moral principle? That you'd say to your accountant, 'oh no, I want to pay more than is strictly necessary'. Gary Barlow (and others) have already paid enormous sums of tax, have contributed vast sums to the economy and have hardly been a burden on the system (I imagine his children are privately educated and that his family have private medical insurance). I couldn't care less if he (or Amazon or Starbucks) seek to pay less tax. Income tax in this country is high enough as it is - I wish I could reduce my tax bill.

Are you honestly telling me that if you could legally pay less tax you'd refuse on some kind of moral principle?

I have done. When working as a consultant I opted to pay PAYE, rather than set up as a sole trader, which is the biggest racket, going on all over this country. I paid significantly more tax as a result.

And for all those others making swipes at people who rightfully receive benefits

No one is doing that. Legitimate benefits claimants aren't part of this discussion, it's about benefit cheats, as in those who are claiming fraudulently.

Shakes I agree that people shouldn't have the choice. But I blame HMRC and successive governments for creating loopholes, not those that arrange their finances so that they legally pay a lower tax bill than they could.

And I don't think it's fair to retrospectively charge tax when the problem is something that was done legally until HMRC changed their minds. That's like expecting all those people that lost their entitlement to child benefit being expected to pay back the CB they claimed when they were perfectly entitled to it before the goalposts were changed. And plenty of people would think it was wrong if that happened.

To be fair grovel Icebreaker Management have on their website that Leading Tax Counsel Andrew Thornhill QC was its professional adviser so he would have advised them that the scheme was within the law and the chances of success should it be tested in court. I don't think the court transcript of the case is published yet but it will make interesting reading. I appreciate that my interest in tax is very very sad and a complete dinner party conversation killer

mrsbucketx 22:16

Again bash those who have worked for their money, why does he need it.

Cause he earned it not claimed it in benefits

WooWoo HMRC do not ever agree to tax avoidance schemes, that is published on their website. HMRC wouldn't have changed their minds, they attacked it and took Icebreaker to court over it. It takes a long time to prepare a case and run it through the tax courts. But that will come out in the case transcript when published.
I think that when people hear that tax avoidance is 'legal', then yes it is not criminal, but it is nonetheless artificial in its basis, and hence will ultimately fail to meet the test of being in the furtherance of business when tested in court and will therefore fail. The tax was always due in the first place, and the investors are now, quite rightly, being pursued to pay it.

Is using your personal allowance and not paying tax on all your income also immoral? What about an ISA? This is exactly the same, just on a bigger scale with someone in the public eye

The personal allowance is the bedrock of progressive taxation. Tax avoidance schemes for the wealthy erode the principle of progressive taxation to which the rest of us are subject and many of us subscribe.

An ISA is an investment vehicle that is designed, in large part, to facilitate flows of capital into business. The money is by definition on shore. It is not the same thing at all.

WooWooOwl 22:31

Thanks Billy

It's true though, we don't need criminals who steal from the public purse, but we do need successful high earners to pay into it.

In fact, it is quite plausible that capitalism requires a pool of unemployed, to discipline wages, and suppress inflation.

Have you studied much economics? you seem really quite naive about the way the system of finance and government works.

I am incredibly naive about economics and finances, it's all way over my head.

I can still have opinions, and I really don't see how capitalism leads people to commit the crime that is benefit fraud.

I'll listen if you try to explain it though.

Good grief. Your opinions are very strident for someone who so readily confesses that they're ill informed.

For those who are defending the scheme, the FT gives some details that might turn your hairs a little
www.ft.com/cms/s/0/712fe592-d860-11e3-93c7-00144feabdc0.html#axzz31XoIOTy3

You don't need to be an expert to know you are taking a risk when entering into one of these schemes. If you're clever enough to make a few million, you're astute enough to know that there are risks involved.

I don't doubt for one minute that Barlow and his mates knew exactly what was going on. That doesn't make them evil criminals, but it does make them greedy hypocrites.

Tax avoidance you declare to HMRC to see if it's legal. Tax evasion you hide money with no intention of paying tax. Two totally different things.

Benefit cheats are more like tax evaders.

Doesn't matter how much he's paid in versus the ordinary person who works 9-5, the fact is he did something heinously immoral and is rightly being forced to pay the money anyway. Just because he's paid in X amount doesn't make keeping Y amount ok.