To think Gary Barlow is worse than a benefits cheat?

[Roshbegosh]

People cheating on benefits do at least need the money .... What he has done is hard to excuse IMO

It's not two sides of the same coin at all.

Leaving aside the fact that one is illegal and one isn't, benefit cheats are immoral because they are stealing at the same time as giving nothing. They are the lowest people in society because they are criminals that we have no need for.

The likes of Gary Barlow give lots and take next to nothing, it's not the same at all. They are useful to society, even if they don't pay as much as the possibly could, and we need successful high earners.

Mrsbucket- hmrc have been telling them for ages that they are against the scheme. DH told me last year that everyone involved in that scheme were very worried.

He probably went into a meeting where they discussed many things.

"Hi Gary, we've drawn up this portfolio here for you:

• This component maximises returns over the short term
• This one is low risk, low return to fund your retirement needs
• This aims to minimise your tax bill
• Here's how your day to day spending will be funded
• Here's where you should disinvest when you want to spend on a big ticket item

..."

Etc etc etc. He took advice from his professional advisors, who he pays to look after his money and keep him legal. One component has since been found to be illegal. It was not at the time.

I personally don't think it's immoral to lower your tax burden within the limits of the law. I think it's immoral to stuff cash under the mattress to avoid tax bills, to knowingly make fraudulent benefit claims and for politicians to refuse to tighten up the tax regs and go after Starbucks et al.

I don't believe for one second he didn't know what he was doing. It might have been legal, but it is bloody immoral.

He is stealing from every single one of us who relies on the State for the education of our children, for our healthcare, for our emergency services, for our Armed Forces, for the local government services.

It is about time these loopholes were closed. He, and his ilk, are avoiding paying millions in tax whilst people are going to foodbanks in this country. It makes me want to vomit. And the fact I paid out almost £70 per ticket to see him last month makes me feel like a fucking mug!

What pisses me off is that he is wealthy anyway. Why should he try to get out of paying the proper tax when he has more than he could ever spend? And I say that as a someone whose DH pays 40% tax. He pays what he's suppose don't pay. Everyone should.

Leaving aside the fact that one is illegal and one isn't, benefit cheats are immoral because they are stealing at the same time as giving nothing. They are the lowest people in society because they are criminals that we have no need for. WooWooOwl

You really are quite the most vile poster on here.

Well he should change his advisors then Stokes. He put £20million into that fund, if he didn't understand what was happening to it, he needs someone to explain it to him.

The definition of evasion is to avoid! I don't understand the difference when talking about tax although accept there is a huge one.

Yabu. I think both are as bad as each other. Barlow should be paying his tax fair and square. A benefits cheat is claiming something they're not entitled to and so is also behaving despicably.

It's sickening for all the law abiding citizens trying to get on honestly that either of these things continue, I'm glad it's been exposed though.

Sorry that was in response to Kristina saying No, tax avoidance is not illegal. Tax evasion is illegal I just find it hard to see the difference!

Benefits cheats are carrying out a criminal offence, so they reap what they sow. I think YABU to suggest this is somehow OK.

Tax avoiders (not legitimate tax planners) are currently not committing a criminal offence but are exploiting the law artificially, so it is of questionable morals. I think YANBU to compare the questionable morals of benefit cheats and tax avoiders.

Tax planners act within what tax law intends are quite rightly arranging their financial affairs in a tax efficient manner.

HMRC state:

Tax avoidance is an attempt to exploit legislation to gain a tax advantage that was never intended. This often involves artificial transactions that serve little or no purpose other than to produce a tax advantage.

But tax avoidance is not the same as tax planning, which involves applying tax legislation in the way it was intended - for example saving in an ISA (Individual Savings Account) where you don't pay tax on the interest.

No-one should have to pay more tax than they need to and the law supports tax planning breaks for legitimate investment, enterprise and savings. Take a look at Icebreaker Management's website, particularly the portfolio of artists where £300million was 'invested' (mainly past their prime and no wonder they didn't make huge profits) and read the CVs of the people who have set it up, interesting reading.

If you enter a scheme where the only aim to to create tax losses rather than pursuing a business purpose then it is entirely correct that all of the investors pay the tax due.

If you knowingly enter a scheme that artificially exploits the law then it is greed, nothing more. High net worth individuals are in an incredibly privileged position and it is galling that they think themselves above the law by getting involved in artificial schemes.

Jimmy Carr is still working so he rode at the storm and I expect that is what will happen to the Take That guys involved once the dust settles. There are lots of celebrities doing this kind of thing, so I expect more of them will be uncovered by he media soon enough.

Sorry, a bit longer than I was expecting, oops.

How does a person on benefits pay into the system billy?????

Or am I being stupid

He would have had the risks explained to him. All tax advisors are very careful to ascertain their clients' appetite for risk before recommending schemes. And to whoever said a big firm would have advised him, a bit reputable firm wouldn't touch this kind of thing with a bargepole.

Thanks Billy

It's true though, we don't need criminals who steal from the public purse, but we do need successful high earners to pay into it.

I don't think he can claim innocence on this - his accountants acted on his behalf and if they were doing something he didn't want them to then it was his responsibility to tell them to stop. Imagine showing up in court and saying he had no idea what his accountants had been up to with his money! As if.

Morality and legality aren't the same thing, and anyway, what he was doing is now illegal since the loophole was closed - so that chestnut doesn't really work out either.

FWIW I do think it's funny that Jimmy Carr was shown hatred by the majority for his tax avoidance, whilst Gary Barlow is being treated with less vitriol because he's apparently nice.

IMO he's a slimy little wanker. Thoroughly pleased he's been ordered to pay it all back. As for benefit fraud, I just don't think the two are comparable.

I imagine he has changed his advisors now ExcuseTypos! They probably did explain it to him, but they will presumably have emphasised how the scheme was legal etc.

I have no time for tax evaders, but if I were in a position to need professional advice on my tax affairs and was told there was a legal way of reducing my tax bill I imagine I would take it without a huge amount of thought or debate. Same as I avoided paying more stamp duty on my house by restricting my bid and if the regime remains as it is now (ha!), I'll avoid paying some of the tax on my pension by taking a tax free cash sum.

Maybe I'm being charitable and GB was actually told very slowly and explicitly what the scheme involved and that it was dubious. But what I think is far more likely is that it is one facet of a complex investment strategy that GB probably barely gave a second thought to.

Hmrc can't always be trusted to decide how much tax is due, they're understaffed, underfunded and undertrained running crap IT systems to interpret badly drawn up law. How much tax someone "ought" to pay is incredibly subjective. Is using your personal allowance and not paying tax on all your income also immoral? What about an ISA? This is exactly the same, just on a bigger scale with someone in the public eye

He tried it on and failed. Now he'll pay up. What I don't care for is his mindset. Let's remember who paid the millions who made him so rich by buying CDs/downloads/going to his concerts. The "little people". Let's remember who he appealed to on Children in Need. The "little people".

He's very greedy/arrogant about money. He'll front up efforts to help the little people div up for others but will do as little as possible to contribute anything but his time himself.. (and it makes him look good).

Gary, you're rich because loads of not-very-rich people like what you do. Perhaps you should care about their education/healthcare/infrastructure more than you do?

Leaping An ISA is tax planning and entirely what the tax law intends so is nothing wrong with it. Tax avoidance is artificial in its basis and seeks to exploit the law how it was not intended and is purely there to create a tax advantage.

Tax evasion is where you are not acting within the law at all, so a step removed from tax avoidance, but I am unsure that the morals of intent are so different.

YABU

I think there have been a few celebrity cases where they have been ripped off, lied to and misadvised by their accountants and advisors

He may well have known all about it but I think it's more likely that he thought his advisers knew what they were talking about and thought whoopee saved some money there

My professional dealings with the HMRC- they don't know the effect of what they put in place. They don't understand their own rules and create complicated regs that are designed in the double negative to ensure they can confuse everyone. All government departments are the same and give truth to the saying 'if you pay peanuts you get monkies'

Maybe the very wealthy would be less inclined to agree to legal reductions in their tax bills if they had some faith that the money they pay would be spent more wisely than it currently seems to be.

Just a thought.

Tax .
Massive issue of mine at the moment .
I have three neighbours who are very good friends . Two fund their extravagant lifestyles because they get paid high amounts in cash . Other good friend has a jolly nice accountant who cleverly tidies up to lesson their tax bill .

These are my three close neighbours and they are all dodging massive tax bills . And the real insult is that they also keep their family benefit !

I reckon more people dodge tax than pay it . I hope everyone of you sweats in bed tonight .

woowooowl total rot and very offensive to boot. My point is that both are immoral. As for Barlow's contribution, I rather like Take That but their music is hardly essential!