...to want to say 'honour and obey' in my vows?

[SteelyMindedLiberal]

Background: we're both feminists. He's a strong personality, very intelligent, very loving, considerate, supports my career, does (more than) half the housework, cooking etc. We're not Christian or conservative.

But...

I am completely submissive to him and he sets the tone in every aspect of our relationship. Obviously there is a strong (and very hot!) BDSM undercurrent to all this. But it goes way beyond the bedroom: he leads, I follow, it's obvious and noticeable, and we both love it.

He's 'in charge'; never controlling. I am always listened to, and feel completely equal. I just do as he says and trust him to do the right thing. We're not ashamed of how we are, it's fundamental to us and because of that we want it to be included in our vows. He says it's up to me but he would like it very much, and I really, really want to say it.

BUT: it would mean outing our 'activities' to all our family and friends. I don't want our wedding to become all about that one line. Maybe no one would really care or give it any thought? We're happy to simply say: 'that's our dynamic and it works for us', to most people, but he has a 20-year-old daughter and it's her we're most worried about. She's sassy and worldly and she'd get it at once and probably be fine with it in private, but might find it really embarrassing and awkward... argh!

Help! It's the whole please ourselves or please others thing, I suppose...

She isn't - don't mistake. See upthread where we discussed the difference between "what we like to do" and "who we like to do it with". Only the latter is a characteristic protected under law.

Sexuality vs sexual choices are two different things, I do not choose to be straight or gay but after that anything goes, BY CHOICE.
BDSM is indeed a lifestyle choice,
sexuality is not.

Sexuality (which is what us involved here) is not equivalent to sexual orientation, which affords legal protection due to years (centuries) of unfair treatment. I can see how parallels can be drawn, but I do think it's offensive to talk as if they are in some way equivalent.

OP, just a curious question-have there been times where you genuinely haven't wanted to follow your OH's instructions/point of view, but have or felt obliged to?

I'm genuinely curious about your relationship because it seems so utterly different to mine. Although I find it difficult to relate to you on some levels because I feel I did choose my style of relationship. I didn't/couldn't choose my sexuality but I constantly communicate with DH about the dynamics of our relationship and completely expect it to differ/evolve at different points of our lives.

DontLaugh: I couldn't give a fuck what you think. Or anyone who is so dense they can't fathom how someone can be a submissive masochist and a feminist at the same time. I can't help the former; the latter is my own choice. As is my decision to submit fully to my man (could easily have been a woman; I'm bi and it's the dominance that does it for me).

It really isn't a tricky concept to grasp.

I don't get the sense that the OP's partner would intervene on an important issue like breastfeeding...

I am generally pretty about sub/dom relationships, but it sounds like the OP is in control of her sexuality and her situation. (Also it sounds fairly vanilla as these relationships go, although perhaps that is the OP toning it down for the shrieking harridans...)

As for her not being a feminist, as feminists not every single decision we make has to be a feminist decision, although I believe it's important that we recognize the ones that are not. Living this way isn't very feminist IMO but it doesn't disqualify her from feminism entirely! As a much tamer example, I personally think a woman changing her surname on marriage these days is virulently unfeminist, but I don't deny that plenty of women do so and are still feminists. I just hope they recognise the context in which they have made their choice.

I do feel I have to say Steely I completely support your choice to say those words in your wedding vows, as in your first post. I do query if you are drawing attention to the nature of your relationship with your husband to be, for 2 reasons:

1. you are aware his adult daughter will decipher the intent of the words and this appears to intrigue/worry/thrill you?
2. it is unusual to say those words nowadays, so inevitably, you feel, there will be questions about your relationship. Do you welcome those questions? Perhaps you wish to announce the nature of your relationship and are seeking approval/disapproval/etc? I am simply asking, as I would ask myself of any choices I make in life. Sometimes I don't like the answers, but the key to life is to keep asking!

And bdsm is a sexuality. You don't get to pick it. I can't be in a vanilla relationship, I've tried, it just doesn't work.

I bow out, I hadn't expected to be sworn at for expressing an opinion.

::sits on hands::

DontLaugh. Thanks for your last post. Sorry I got hotheaded before. We won't say that in the vows. This thread has helped us decide. I can't face our relationship being torn apart like this, not on that or any day.

Yes, sorry about that. I put myself up for this but it's been difficult, the overwhelming abbrobation. It got to me and I snapped. I shouldn't have. I apologise.

..I think there must be a lot of "dense" people on the thread then
That post was unnecessarily unpleasant OP.

Steely of course, thank you for the apology. You will have a lovely wedding day and this issue will seem like small change in the scheme of marriage in years to come.
I wish you the best.

X post.

Maybe it would be helpful to distinguish between sexual orientation and sensuality?

I sort of think of it as a graph with BDSM on one axis (D above the line, s below the line, not interested on the line) and sexual orientation from left (likes only men) to right (likes only women) with completely bisexual in the middle. The two things are completely independent so people turn up all over the graph.

Thanks :)

And igggi, it's been relentless today. I and others have explained it a thousand times. I don't see how it can be so hard to differentiate between those two very different things.

I am just LOVING having homophobia straightsplained to me in this thread. LOVING IT.

And yes, the parallels are clear, exact, and apposite. I've stared down the barrel of both.

I was a teenage gay in the 1980s. I'm out as D/s now. The abuse ("just expressing an opinion" "it's just mild debate", then as now) is eerily similar*. There are some on this thread who are to feminism as the Westboro Baptists are to christianity.

*Fortunately, all it's triggering is a desire to have a glass of wine and watch some deeply trashy television.

Liking certain kinds of sex, isn't sexual orientation. We are taught by a patriarchial society what is "sexy". Patriarchy teaches women to eroticise our own oppression.

Good luck OP

Bump: I love doing what he tells me, the more dominant he gets the better, can't explain why, it just is. He sees what I get from it and that spurs him on, because at the root of it is a deep need to please each other, meet each other's needs.

Sometimes it's difficult when I'm tired, and sometimes I try hard at something but it's too much, in which case I tell him and we discuss it, and he always listens and takes what I have to say on board. He loves and respects me, and I always feel safe and secure - he can usually read the situation and stops anything tough when I've had enough.

Is the sort of thing you wanted to know about?

Kisses, I couldn't care less if someone is lesbian, gay or bi.

And i don't really care about you being involved in BDSM. But maybe when you are feeling calm, if you read this thread and your comments, you may understand better why you got the responses you have.

Corus: attacking me based on something I can't control. Making me feel like there's something wrong with me because my sexuality is different. You don't have to be chucking stones at someone, and I grant you it was a mild form of persecution, but that's what it was and I've had a lot of it today from people who self-indentify as liberal.

And it is a sexuality. Maybe not all bdsm practises, but my corner of if is. ''Normal' sex does nothing for me. It's caused big problems in relationships all my life and I feel so fortunate to have found my fiancé, who fits with me so well.