...to want to say 'honour and obey' in my vows?

[SteelyMindedLiberal]

Background: we're both feminists. He's a strong personality, very intelligent, very loving, considerate, supports my career, does (more than) half the housework, cooking etc. We're not Christian or conservative.

But...

I am completely submissive to him and he sets the tone in every aspect of our relationship. Obviously there is a strong (and very hot!) BDSM undercurrent to all this. But it goes way beyond the bedroom: he leads, I follow, it's obvious and noticeable, and we both love it.

He's 'in charge'; never controlling. I am always listened to, and feel completely equal. I just do as he says and trust him to do the right thing. We're not ashamed of how we are, it's fundamental to us and because of that we want it to be included in our vows. He says it's up to me but he would like it very much, and I really, really want to say it.

BUT: it would mean outing our 'activities' to all our family and friends. I don't want our wedding to become all about that one line. Maybe no one would really care or give it any thought? We're happy to simply say: 'that's our dynamic and it works for us', to most people, but he has a 20-year-old daughter and it's her we're most worried about. She's sassy and worldly and she'd get it at once and probably be fine with it in private, but might find it really embarrassing and awkward... argh!

Help! It's the whole please ourselves or please others thing, I suppose...

"Anyone who disagrees with me is close-minded" is such a shit argument.

I think comparing practising BDSM to being gay is a bit distasteful, to be honest. Being criticised on the internet for liking to be spanked (or whatever) is hardly the same as facing homophobic abuse on a day to day basis.

The message you are giving, whether you like it or not, is one that states women should obey men, and this is to be taken SO seriously that a vow is made. Once you say this vow, it is out there, and people listening, such as the young daughter and all other women, are affected by that.

Feminism is NOT about choice. Individual woman's choices about how they live their life when it impacts NEGATIVELY upon other women, is NOT feminism and their choice does NOT trump other women's rights to live with complete equality without messages like this being sent!! If you give a message that states women are inferior to men, even if it is YOUR choice, that can impact upon other women's RIGHTS, which are more important and more true to feminism.

If you and your partner really were feminists, you would be thinking about OTHER women and how this vow of yours might affect them. But as you don't, then you aren't.

Steely> I am a liberal and a feminist. Feminism is nt a radical ideology; it is simply about equality.

If you wanna bow before a man and e submissive , gofor it! I personally cannot think of anything more detrimental to who I am, personally. But, as you say, it is your choice. Good luck.

I think comparing practising BDSM to being gay is a bit distasteful, to be honest. Being criticised on the internet for liking to be spanked (or whatever) is hardly the same as facing homophobic abuse on a day to day basis

Maybe pretending to be persecuted when you're not actually being persecuted is fun. In the same way that playing at being powerless when you're not actually powerless is fun.

I don't think submitting to a man is anti-feminist, although declaring that you are doing so could well be.

Comparing BDSM and homosexuality probably isn't helpful, as you're comparing what you like to do with who you prefer to do it with - not the same.

But there are some similar features, most notably that people on this thread are saying this is how we were born and we don't remember feeling any other way, even before we were old enough to be sexual beings, and some people are telling us we're damaged, sick, wrong and weird.

The main difference is that you can't tell by looking at me and DH what we are into, but if we were the same sex you'd probably guess we were gay. So there's less abuse/discrimination because it's largely invisible - like a bisexual woman wouldn't attract homophobic abuse if she happened to be coupled up with a man.

OP, I'm just curious whether you feel more or less likely to promise to obey after reading this thread?

But the only way you're subjected to discrimination/judgement is if you choose to put it out there. If any of my friends decided to incorporate their bedroom antics into their wedding vows, I'm sure they'd all get faces from the guests.

"I solemnly vow to piss all over your chest forevermore"

I have to say, speaking from memories of a time when I Didn't Do Women, the horseshit about bdsm being spouted on this thread would've filled a homophobia bingo card, had I bothered to bring one.

Not that I feel persecuted: bigotry can and should be laughed off.

I'm glad Blistory brought up the Feminism being liberation of women thing. I think, perhaps, that's where the misunderstandings come from. If you don't believe that's what Feminism is and think it's simply about choice, then you won't believe that submission to a man is problematic.

Do what you want. Feminists who subscribe to the liberation of women definition are surely delighted by your support in areas in which you both overlap. You can't be surprised that there is a fundamental disagreement on this one, though, can you?

I am not sure but I think that the lack of understanding/open mindedness comes about because you happen to be on a forum that people use for many situations - but within the relationship boards in particular - to discuss abusive relationships.

I understand and respect the dynamics of your relationship, although I don't live this way in everyday life, I would say that to a degree I live it in the bedroom and I had quite a big 'eureka' moment after seeing the film 'Secretary; for the first time

However, if this element/gene/need is completely absent in someone, and therefore the pleasure you derive from your role seems utterly alien, it would, I suppose, be natural/easy, to read the 'dom' traits as abusive and your sub behaviour as 'doormat'.

I don't think being a sub and feminist are in any way in conflict within a healthy relationship FWIW.

I still stand by my earlier post about the vows. I still say that you are choosing to obey - for reasons of your own - and not submitting to obey for reasons imposed by the institution of marriage, and it is therefore not relevant to your relationship.

Maybe you could draw up a new contract based on your relationship but recognising your new 'married status' instead?

Good luck OP.

I think it would be noticed.

I was at a wedding where it was "reinserted" by the couple who are quite traditional in a lot of ways. Lots of people noticed, and it was talked about at the reception. We later found out that the groom asked for it to go back in and were a bit

I don't think it crossed anyone's mind that they were into BDSM though!

Patriarchy has traditionally taught us that a man should be dominant in a Het relationship. You are simply following traditional patriarchial thinking, that a woman should submit to her Husband. There is absolutely nothing transgressive or alternative about this. In fact it is incredibly mainstream.

Feminism teaches us that women should be liberated, and that in a healthy relationship, nobody should be dominant or submitting to the other.

I suspect you think your relationship is transgressive or alternative. It really isnt. It is incredibly traditional and fits in with the ideas of the most conservative right wing thinkers, even if you do dress it up with sex toys and a bit of leather.

turgid

I see several humungous differences

The first is why you submit - traditional patriarchal thinking is not that submission is something that is only to be done when fulfilling and feels right to both parties, but something that must always be done by every woman to her husband because "all woman are xyz".

The second is the gender thing - traditional patriarchal thinking is that it's gender which determines who submits to who, and that all women submit to all men, whereas D/s is about individual choice and preference determining who submits, and it is equally acceptable and equally as good to have a man submitting to a woman

Which lets face it, is absolutely unaccepted by patriarchal thinking, because they see submission by a man as somehow inherently wrong, whereas in D/s it's absolutely a-okay and common

People in the BDSM community do not think that women should submit to men. That's bollocks, there's no gender bias attached to the fulfilment people find in BDSM or Ds relationships within the community

Now, if I was in a D/s relationship, I wouldn't want the traditional vows in the ceremony, because they represent an institution which definitely isn't what D/s relationships (for me) are about, and so i can see the argument that using traditional vows of a patriarchal instution in a formal ceremony could be construed as not a feminist choice...but I just can't see that a community that is very well know for not pushing people into certain roles based on gender, is an anti-feminist community

TOTALLY what turgiday said.

I think that it is an anti-feminist community if women but not the men in that community start vowing to honour and obey their partners in public.

Lilka - The basic idea that someone in a relationship submits, and someone dominates, is patriarchial. The fact that some BDSM couples turn this round so that it is the man who submits, does not erase this dynamic.

Feminism is about respectful relationships where nobody submits or dominates.

In terms of why you submit - justify it however you want. But the idea that people "choose" to submit or dominate free from the influences of our culture, is I think rubbish.

I just think it's weird to have a line from the Book of Common Prayer in a civil marriage service.

I don't really think there is much of a dilemma here - you can have what you like, as long as you don't mind people thinking it's slightly odd. BDSM has become so popular and over-publicised as to be almost mundane anyway.

But how do you know that men who are marrying are not making those committments in ceremonies (providing it's legally allowed)? They certainly make these vows and promises in non-legal ceremonies (eg. I once attended an event in a home that was a committment ceremony between the partners, it was a F/m relationship, there were quite a few of us as guests and witnesses)

It's just the OP in this situation is a woman

Why do you identify as a feminist OP?