...to want to say 'honour and obey' in my vows?

[SteelyMindedLiberal]

Background: we're both feminists. He's a strong personality, very intelligent, very loving, considerate, supports my career, does (more than) half the housework, cooking etc. We're not Christian or conservative.

But...

I am completely submissive to him and he sets the tone in every aspect of our relationship. Obviously there is a strong (and very hot!) BDSM undercurrent to all this. But it goes way beyond the bedroom: he leads, I follow, it's obvious and noticeable, and we both love it.

He's 'in charge'; never controlling. I am always listened to, and feel completely equal. I just do as he says and trust him to do the right thing. We're not ashamed of how we are, it's fundamental to us and because of that we want it to be included in our vows. He says it's up to me but he would like it very much, and I really, really want to say it.

BUT: it would mean outing our 'activities' to all our family and friends. I don't want our wedding to become all about that one line. Maybe no one would really care or give it any thought? We're happy to simply say: 'that's our dynamic and it works for us', to most people, but he has a 20-year-old daughter and it's her we're most worried about. She's sassy and worldly and she'd get it at once and probably be fine with it in private, but might find it really embarrassing and awkward... argh!

Help! It's the whole please ourselves or please others thing, I suppose...

Also, you said 'I am completely submissive to him and he sets the tone in every aspect of our relationship'

but when talking about the vows you say, 'He says it's up to me but he would like it very much'

It's not really clear how this works. Surely if he would like it very much, he should just say that is what you are doing and you say ok?

X-posted!

It isn't astonishing. She knows me, she knows him, she knows we are the opposite to traditional, she will realise.

She will realise what though? You honestly think she will link wedding vows to bdsm?

Surely, if she knows you both well like you say she does, she already knows that you do everything he says so it will no surprise to use those vows, won't even register with her that it's out of the ordinary these days.

Why would she jump straight to thinking about your sex life.

I've got no issue at all with BDSM and understand the dynamics of the sex part, as someone how dabbles. However if I was to hear those vows - particularly from someone who self-identifies as feminist - I would be all over wanting to hear why, so I would ask. And I do NOT want to hear about the sex lives of friends and family.

Therefore I think YABU because you will leave yourselves open to questions that you cannot adequately answer without making your friends' and family's ears bleed. Don't do it, it's not necessary.

who

No, daughters wouldn't submit to the dom. How peculiar that you should think that after everything I've said.

We don't have kids yet, but won't be fucking them up when we do. Don't let that stop your prejudice against my (entirely involuntary) sexuality though, sista.

Apologies but the way you are assuming other people would read into it based on your own projections sounds awfully like you are carrying it like some sort of guilty conscience.

Fairenuff: she might not. But then again she might. It wouldn't be astonishing if she did. Not after that shit book fifty shades has been everywhere, anyway.

Lila- so if, as the OP said, the dom is in charge of what the family does at the weekend, how do you address the issue of the children asking the sub if they can do one thing, and her having to tell them it's up to the dom to decide?

It would be easier to tell the kids that for a family outing, both parents need to want to go. This happens in most households,

If the sub allows the dom to have the last word in every domestic issue,which is what the OP seems to be saying, how is that modelling a healthy relationship to children? Are daughters expected to submit to the dom as well?

It's not micromanaging or 'every last issue'.

As for 'daughters' (why daughters? We've been pointing out again and again that people involved in D/s do NOT see it as a gender issue, and are equally comfortable with the idea of a F/m relationship, but you're either wilfully ignoring us, or confusing D/s with certain conservative religious sects, which run on a 'men in charge' principle, which has NOTHING to do with D/s), frankly in most households children are expected to repsect their parents and generally do as they are told. If the sons AND daughters aren't obeying BOTH their mum/dad (on a consistent basis, not normal naughtiness) then there's a problem, and it isn't a D/s problem. The parents will have decided the ground rules of the house in advance, so there is not going to be a situation where they are disagreeing over things like bed time in front of the kids. They'll be presenting a united front

Given that submission includes sexual submission and the emotional 'in love' dynamic, I bloody well hope you aren't trying on the 'Doms are paedophiles' line which is just as annoying, offensive and stupid as 'gay men are paedophiles'

What a lot of twaddle

Sorry but to my mind you aren't a feminist and don't really see why you want to claim to be one under the circumstances apart from attempting to mitigate the fact that your partner commands you.

Bizarre

Clueless: nah. It's just normal to me so I probably assume people are more up on it than they actually are.

'Given that submission includes sexual submission and the emotional 'in love' dynamic, I bloody well hope you aren't trying on the 'Doms are paedophiles' line which is just as annoying, offensive and stupid as 'gay men are paedophiles'

No one has brought that up but you.

Say what you like. It's your wedding.

I am a feminist, coming. And you have no right to deem me otherwise based on something you don't understand.

Children are not blind they would see this and think it the norm and may feel unable to move beyond that. It does send out a message no matter what you think. If its just sexual then whatever you like but if its a whole way of being and living outside of the bedroom then if you have children you need to consider it.

Why daughters? Because most people don't want to raise a daughter who thinks being submissive to her partner is the normal thing to do.

You might not see it as a gender issue but the children you're raising might easily.

Implying that Doms want their children (oh no wait 'daughters', cause all Doms think women are inferior to men) to 'submit' to them, when we've just spent half a thread talking about submission in a sexual context, is weird, and given that submission in a D/s context INCLUDES sexual submission

It implies either a warped view of Doms, or completely confusing conservative religious sects with D/s relationships

Believe me, OP, no-one, but no-one wants to think about one or both of their parents having sex. Brain bleach is required immediately to eradicate such fleeting images. His dd will not be dwelling on this.

The bottom line (pun intended) is that no-one is interested in your sex life. Say it if you want, or not. It will make no difference to anyone else.

I don't think its about want ing their children to submit to them I do 'get' it. BUT if a child grows up with "We have an automatic car because what dad says goes/or dad chooses weekend activities etc' then it gives a skewed view of an equal relationship.

The concern is not that the children will be submissive to the parent. I'm talking about the long-term. It's about children seeing one parent as being extremely submissive to the other and then thinking this is the norm for adult relationships.

Wtaf

Children don't grow up in a vacuum with only their parents relationship as a model. If you have strong connections wih other couples your children see often enough, it presents a view to children of multiple kinds of relationships.

Children whose parents have a D/s relationships don't see extreme submission or doormatness all the time.

I also don't understand why self-identifying as a feminist is so important to you.

It wasn't me raised the "what that family does at the weekend" thing- the OP said that's one of the things her partner decides. I was wondering whether he would continue to decide when there are children. I'm not actually interested in the sexual side of the relationship- there are plenty of people who act out this sort of stuff in the bedroom, but the OP says that their whole life is lived in this way. So presumably he would have ultimate say over the children too. And the children would grow up seeing their mother submitting to their father in all things. Which can't be right

Lilka, your posts are clear & excellent - & OP, you've been both brave & patient here. I think a lot of what's been written here is sheer prejudice, though, dressed up as feminist scruple, & I do see it as analogous to other forms of sexual prejudice.

And the absolute refusal of the vast majority of OP's critics to address the issue of whether it's ONLY D/S relationships where the woman is submissive that are to be seen as a problem - & if so, why - says it all really.

Hope everything goes well for you, OP.