to say something to my friend?

[reallyneedmoresleep]

My friend and I both have six year old sons in the same class at school. She's a lovely lady, but has a rather...um... different approach to parenting than I do - she rarely seems to have any boundaries for her children, and I don't think I've ever seen her discipline them beyond a bit of a sad ""Oh DS!" when they are totally disobeying her.
Her youngest son is a clever child who can sometimes be lots of fun and can sometimes be a total little monster. I've just found out that another child in the class is leaving the school because of the aggressive and bullying behaviour of my friend's son. There are a number of other mums in the year group who are starting to turn against my friend and her child - all sorts of e-mails flying round along the lines of "we should all write a letter demanding that this child is expelled" etc etc.
The thing is, I think my friend is unaware of all of this. She has been called in to school a couple of times to deal with her son's behaviour, but she just feels he's a creative, free-spirited type who struggles with being the youngest in the school year.
Should I say something to my friend? Should I let her know how the other mums are feeling before it turns into a full-blown witch-hunt? Or should I just butt out? I know she'd be devastated at some of the things the other mums are saying, but if someone had removed their child from school because of my child's behaviour I would REALLY want to know. Sorry for a long post!

Personally? I'd keep well out of it.

If I did anything it would be to tell the school that parents are ganging up on a 6 year old boy.
I wouldn't say anything to your friend though unless your son was having a problem and even then it would depend on the likely reaction of the friend. I think you need to leave this to the school. It would seem they are handling things badly if there are enough issues for a child to leave and parents looking for expulsion yet the mother of the child at the centre of it all is unaware.

She's been called into school. If she doesn't know what he's like now its because she's wilfully determined to see him as she wants to, and refusing to accept what anyone else says.

If you say something, she won't want to hear it and will likely either laugh it off or turn on you.

I would.. when my pal overheard the mass complaint from a bunch of parents she let me know. Granted my situations slightly different.

Tell her and tell the school and if she asked my opinion honestly in things I would tell her.

She's been called into school. If she doesn't know what he's like now its because she's wilfully determined to see him as she wants to, and refusing to accept what anyone else says.

^^ This! I know copying and pasting others comments is lazy, but I couldn't put it better myself.

I would probably go and chat to the school about the witch hunt and possibly mention her lack of awareness.

Unless your school head is completely ineffectual, your friend has already been told what her son's behaviour is like. She doesn't care that he is hurting and scaring other children. She is either unwilling or unable to do anything about him.

But what would she do if you did say anything ?

Is she suddenly going to turn into a really strict parent which after doing nothing for years is going to be massively difficult for her and the child.

Also if there is an allegation of bullying then the school will have processes in place to deal with this - if it isn't working then it's up to the school to decide on the next step.

I would let the school know that there is a "witch hunt" going on and parents are getting themselves all wound up.

Oh I don't mind, MammaTJ

I don't think she's unaware. On the contrary, I think she's totally aware and clearly doesn't give a hoot.

God I hate these parents who think their kids are perfect and can do no wrong. If he's bullying other children then this needs dealing with and I can actually see where the other parents are coming from. I wouldn't be happy if my child was being bullied and yes I'd want the perpetrator excluded.

Nothing good will come of you saying anything to her. She has been called in by the school, she is aware of his behavior so really it is up to her whether she takes it on board or stick her head in the sand and puts it down to his creativeness.

To be fair, if he is a real bully and she is ignoring the signs then she is putting herself in the firing line - do not stand next to her and make yourself a target too.

The other parents should deal one to one with the school if they have concerns and not be 'ganging' up together by email.

How do YOU know about the emails but she doesn't?

By all means have a word with your friend - but only about any concerns YOU have about the child's behaviour that affects your own child.

I doubt your friend would be 'devastated' about the other parents when she ignores what the school have already discussed with her.
It is all very well being a 'creative, free spirited type' - but her son has to fit in with a class of children. Aggression and bullying is not a sign of a 'free spirit'!

Sounds like a woman I used to know. Her child was at our local playgroup and was a little shit to be quite honest. Her "discipline" was totally ineffectual, on the rare occasion she tried to discipline him. Fast forward to school and it got worse. Several children left, only to come back after he left and went to their school because she said he was being victimised. He wasnt, he needed boundaries and he didnt have any so his behaviour got worse and worse. He was eventually excluded at age 6 and she again claimed victimisation and said she was home schooling from then on. His little brother on the other hand is a great kid and really blossomed at school when he was away from his bullying older sibling. They moved away so I dont know what happened after that but I can imagine.

She didnt want to hear it, and nothing anyone said to her made any difference. Anyone who tried to help or suggest that, yes her child may be gifted (he wasnt) and free spirited but he still needed discipline was immediately cut off and never spoken to again.

All you can do is protect yourself and your DC from being tainted by association.

And another one.....she was a PITA all through primary with accusations of bullying being brushed off as jealousy and victimisation. Then the girls went to senior school and the girl left 3 schools voluntarily and was excluded from a further 2. I know this because her mother would tell me whenever I saw her about how awful the other girls and the schools were to her DD. Her DD, the one hanging around smoking and throwing bricks at cars at age 12.....such a precious delicate flower.... She was recently thrown off her college course and is doing nothing. But of course, that wasnt her fault, everyone is always picking on her....

It's so sad that this is a type that so many of us have encountered. In DSs' small school we have 2 such parents.

One of them sent her first DS to a Steiner school and may well be sending her second one too, don't know yet if she will. She even told one of the other boys in the Yr R class that his mummy shouldn't be fighting his battles for him and he needs to stand up for himself - erm, no? You should be telling YOUR DS off instead of the other mum having to step in????!!!!!

I would only have a word along the lines of "how did the meeting / meetings about your ds's behaviour go"

She seems very resistant to understanding what the problem is though.

Also what's a Steiner school?

Steiner school:

The priority of the Steiner ethos is to provide an unhurried and creative learning environment where children can find the joy in learning and experience the richness of childhood rather than early specialisation or academic hot-housing. The curriculum itself is a flexible set of pedagogical guidelines, founded on Steiner’s principles that take account of the whole child. It gives equal attention to the physical, emotional, intellectual, cultural and spiritual needs of each pupil and is designed to work in harmony with the different phases of the child’s development. The core subjects of the curriculum are taught in thematic blocks and all lessons include a balance of artistic, practical and intellectual content. Whole class, mixed ability teaching is the norm.

I know a parent like this, its so odd that even very intelligent and highly educated parents who actually work in the education field do not understand the need for boundaries and how its your role to help your child through parenting and discipline.

What must a child feel when they hurt another and nothing is done?Its scary!
Op
do not say a word, as others have said she will not listen to trained proffs in the school...she will def not listen to you.

I'm sorry but I have very little sympathy for the parent in this case but I do feel for her out of control son. She needs to wise up and sort out her child's behaviour. Parent's like this make me so cross. We had a similar situation and just like in Bogeface's scenario the parent constantly blamed everyone else....right to then end. In fact she took the child out of the school claiming that everyone else had been bullying her. Everyone knew it was the other way around and that this child's behaviour had been horrendous for years.

The parents would apparently rather do anything other than actually accept that their kid's behaviour is unacceptable and do something about it.

In answer to your question I think you should do as you see fit but don't feel bad about it either way. It's not your fault that this has happened. It depends how close you are I suppose.

I think you can deal with behaviour you and your child experience directly that is problematic, but not with vague reports of behaviour towards others that you haven't seen.

What I mean is if you tell her and she is outraged then what will you say? I do think it would be wrong if you were close friends and you were secretly involved in this campaign though, but you're not.

If the reports are fairly constant across different situations and with different people though Denzel you would surely be open to accepting that there might be an issue whether you had seen them all or not.

just a point about the above on Steiner schools. The "spiritual" bit in the quite above refers to the underpinning philosophy at Steiner schools which is basically a religion (called anthrosophy) and is a bit odd to say the least. In fact Steiner is classed as a cult in some coutries IIRC.

Steiner schools are not just a mire creative or free version if schools, instead they have some very questionable practices IMO.

Not wishing to open a debate about Steiner, but just to say anyone intertested should do their own research to find out what they're about.

OP, yes you should speak to your friend. That's what friends do.

While all probably know a parent who is just a bit shit and is actually harming their child by their failure to discipline we don't know what action has been taken by the school with regards to this particular situation. It may be the case that the school have not dealt with this properly and the mother is not fully aware of what has gone on.

What we do know is that there are emails being circulated by adults that are not directly tackling the problem they believe (possibly quite rightly, possibly not, we don't know) exists and that are targeting a child.

Op, in your situation I would forward the emails to the school for them to investigate and take action. If I was brave I would point out that they need to each approach the school about any bullying incidents or poor behaviour that happens in school and that you are very uncomfortable with the way this child and his mother are currently being discussed... but I'm not brave so I would probably just delete them and keep out of it other than sending that one email to the head.