to be unsurprised that Jeremy Clarkson used the N word?

[lessonsintightropes]

Abject apology here.

Surely the Beeb will have to sack him now?

Nomama

People discussing an offensive word doesn't bother me. This topic isn't new to MN. Ace is a euphenism for that word..oh, really? Thats a new one on me.

I give a shit about racists because they try to make the lives of non-white people difficult. If they weren't doing that then Id be fine with their view as long as they didn't trouble me or mine or aim to affect our lives negatively.

You sound like the worst kind of over-pc, over-earnest do gooder - secretly racist but covering it with patronising 'syrup' and stirring things up. The kind I run a mile from as whilst Im thinking about/doing something else, they're banging on & on about race, colour, how they emphasise, oh what does this or that feel like... blah blah blah...when actually I may not want to discuss that as there are actually other things to life and race/colour is by far not the only thing I think about on a day to day basis.

You claim to emphasise with this young man yet you're tripping over yourself to provide examples of black people who are racist. Im not fooled by you at all - there are many of you out there. Putting up posts and taking the opportunity to use offensive words liberally. Refusing to listen when other sensible people tell you, they didn't use offensive words. You simply cannot accept what you do not want to be the truth.

You are exhibiting the same old pattern..pretending to emphasise with someone due to their experiences of racism, and then going all wide-eyed painting an extreme example of said person's behaviour so as to present him in a bad light where others won't feel sorry for him and will label the black man as an idiot. Said idiot being the same person you don't mind talking about your cleavage, and you spend ages talking about him being a black man and how you and he feel about that, alongside his 'offence' at wanting to be seen as a black man first and foremost. Which is entirely his prerogative, why exactly would anyone want to invest themselves in dictating how he SHOULD feel?

If I went to work and some guy was suggesting I wore high heels and flashed my cleavage, his ears would be ringing after Id finished with him. Im sure most women would react in the same way. Seems very odd that despite this extreme behaviour, you are sitting there in work time chatting on and on about his race, colour, how he feels about life and so on and so on. You sound to be very invested. Still thats your call but I don't think gaining an understanding of racism is your agenda, somehow. Odd way to go about it indeed...

Emphasise?

I was born in the late 70s, we went to the paki shop, we had a chinkie for dinner. Somebody down the thread talked about intent. There was no racist intent, to us it was no different to calling someone an Aussie. Now, none of us would use any of those words, because we know better, but at that point in time to our shame they were normal then for us. I wish it wasn't so, but it would be disingenuous to deny it.

Not disingenuous, Trixymalixi, truthful.

I really do disagree with your assertion that your experience represented the majority cultural experience of the time.

I initially wrote something much longer but I didn't really trust that it would not be misconstrued. So I'm left with something quite cursory - and I apologise for that.

The problem with the 'it's PC gone mad / free speech brigade' is that these are often the same people who bang on about there being no manners in this country anymore.

That's all this is. Manners.

So yes, many people used to use these words. I'll accept they/we didn't mean them aggressively but neither did we give any thought to the feelings of the people they were describing.

These words cause genuine harm and upset and, regardless of rights or what YOU mean, or how racist or not racist you are, it is insensitive and I'll-mannered to use these words in any context in the 21st century.

It's about respect.

So if people say - 'I am hurt and upset by this language' you're responses are

A) I'm very sorry, I didn't realise. I won't do it again

Or

B) I don't give a damn about your feelings.

newpencilcase

I like that...manners. Just sums it up

Which assertion is that thecat? Nowhere in my post do I say that it was the majority cultural experience.

I do wonder if there are regional differences. Wikipedia seems to suggest that usage was more common in Scotland/the north of the country.

So, MistressDeeCee, you managed to misread and misunderstand everything I typed then? See your reference to friend as a young man, for a start!

You interpretation is astonishing, your assumptions about me entirely fabricated from those misunderstandings and probably say much more about your own narrow mindedness than mine.

I'd go through your points, one by one, to illustrate your errors (tripping over myself to do what?), but, to be honest, the tone of your post does that better than I could.

Well, maybe just one: your take on his discussing my cleavage is a prime example. You seem to think he was salivating. He was pointing out that I should be able to dress as I liked, as feminine, as provocatively as I chose to without anyone making any negative assumptions about my ability. I should be able to live as a feminine female just as he should be able to live as black man, with no assumptions made. From your invective you completely misunderstood that exchange in its entirety!

Oh, and it is kind of you to worry about my employer having their time wasted, but that is another misunderstanding. I don't work with him, my DH does. Our chats take place outside the workplace, when we meet as friends. But yes, we do get into some very deep and often belligerent conversations about all sorts of things, as I try to emphasise my points and he his.

"Which assertion is that thecat? Nowhere in my post do I say that it was the majority cultural experience."

Trixy, nomama has asserted that experiences similar to yours were the majority in culture - I think that's what thecat meant.

Ah, thought the whole post was aimed at me.

No Trixy, that bit would have been at me. I have said that I find it impossible to believe that people of a certain age have never, ever in their whole, entire lives used a word that is now considered perjorative.

To be honest, I still do. But, having explained why, I can see why many people would insist they have not. I believe them too, I just think they may have forgotten or buried a youthful indiscretion. It is more likely (apparently) that they were brought up in a much more middle class, PC household than my Northern roots

Which assertion is that thecat? Nowhere in my post do I say that it was the majority cultural experience.

I'm sorry, trixymalixy: you didn't. I really should have re-phrased what I wrote.

I don't think that they were the majority cultural experience.

For what it's worth, there is some very good research on this subject.

I think the standard line now is that such speech is a minority, oppositional discourse. I don;t want to go into this at length, because I really fear it can come across as being personal - this stuff really is all about who we are, and how we experience our lives. I just don't think I have the necessary sensitive touch.

I remember reading books published by the Open University, but there is more.

We are a long way from Nobber Clarkson. But I do think this stuff about how we tell the truth and judge the truth from our own experiences is important.

I also think it matters because it establishes a context for what Clarkson has done.

The more I think about it, the more unacceptable I think it is, actually.

www.spectator.co.uk/features/9135981/how-racist-is-britain/

Add that to the Cornish having just been accorded minority status and you get a really clear idea of just how out of kilter the UK has become.

Now, what acronym do I live under? Ginger, Scouse, female, working class usedtobe/middle class wannabe, sorry, forgot white and middle aged!

nomama

Will you shut the fuck up with your everyone over 40 has said the word nigger and is either lying or has buried it because they are so ashamed

It's really pissing me off now that you have said a number of times that Any one who has said otherwise is either lying or delusional

And I take back my "you don't strike me as being stupid" comment

Clarkson makes people laugh, and the world needs laughter. Life can't be all wearisome fretting over political correctness.

Picking up on thecatfromjapan's point, I really do not think that that racism is an issue of weary political correctness. Or thigh-slapping hilarity when some idiot makes a racist crack.

thecatfromjapan

"I also think it matters because it establishes a context for what Clarkson has done."

This has prompted me to post on here again, I asked on the other thread for someone to post the actual un-manipulated footage of the Clarkson footage.

So I will ask the same on this thread.

As so many posters believe that Clarkson has said this can they post a link to un-manipulated footage.

Racism is a form of judgement [putting somone up or putting them down].
It has nothing to do with political correctness.

If we are giving examples of our own experiences then according to research by The Scottish Executive/Scottish Government as late as 2007 38% of respondents in their survey didn't think Paki or Chinky in relation to food or shops was racist at all; 38% thought it was slightly racist and 24 % strongly racist.

This was after Executive/Government awareness campaigns which had the effect of making almost no difference to the mildly racist percentage and a movement of 4% from not racist to strongly racist.

www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2006/09/14141401/4

www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2006/09/14141401/0

I suspect people living in Scotland in 2004 - 2007 didn't intend to be hurtful using these terms as I would imagine most people are extremely appreciative of having takeaway food outlets which aren't chip shops and corner shops which stay open late.

Do I/did I and my family use these terms? No. In the 60s and 70s our village had no non-white residents until 1977 when a Chinese restaurant opened. I can't remember anyone calling it a "chinky" It's not an expression which would have come naturally to rural northeast Scotland and I think we were so in awe of having a Chinese restaurant in the village being rude would have been unthinkable. The village no longer has the restaurant but has a Chinese takeaway and an Indian restaurant. My brother and his family don't use these words.

After I left home in the late 70s for the bright lights of 3 out of Scotland's 4 cities did I use them? I certainly heard them used but I didn't use them myself. If I'm being honest probably because both are ugly sounding and slang words which I don't use anyway."Kids" for example sets my teeth on edge. Neither my husband nor my son use them.

I don't recall the use of the n word (other than as part of eeny meeny, which was changed to tiger) when I was growing up.

I do recall my grandfather being shocked at "'Til Death us do Part" as he'd never heard such language. My mother who had lived in London and had spent time in South Africa of course had. I don't think I've ever heard it used except in the context of discussion about how it's not acceptable.

As a Scottish woman, those results make me feel very disappointed, Caitlin

I didn't know anyone who used the n word growing up. I certainly heard people use the derogatory terms for Pakistani and Chinese people but not in an innocent way. They were said by bullies, who meant to hurt. Just doesn't tally with my experience at all, but maybe growing up in a big city (for Scotland), like Glasgow, where people have a reputation for being decent, fun and welcoming and a lot of us are proud to hold socialist values and
educating yourself is held in high regard, I'm just lucky

The term 'paki shop' is still in shockingly common usage in Glasgow.

Corey I never heard "Paki" used in the part of Scotland I grew up in. I've heard it used in Aberdeen, Edinburgh and Glasgow. If you want to argue about it take it up with the Government researchers not me.

My husband who is from the greater Glasgow area would I suspect disagree about your assessment of Glasgow.

White, working class, born in the 80s.

I never used "nigger". My mum told me that was a worse word than "cunt".

I said "paki" until my parents sat down with me and explained that's a horrible word. The same with "Chinky". My parents said "but you wouldn't want to be rude to your friends, would you? Using that word, even if your friends aren't there, is very rude"

Rufus, that's 'over the age of 50' to be precise. I am not sure why my persistance bothers you.... guilty conscience?

Shockinglybadteacher, born in the 80s. the decade it all began to change and the UK grew up. Colonialism was rejected (more or less) and PC began to mean something. I would be shocked if you had ever experienced anything different. Your parents are probably my age, determined not to bring their kids up with the same attitude as they had been brought up.