To be worried about my DS's pre school?

[Mrssmith9]

My DS isn't a typical toddler, he is 2 and a half; the HV is keeping an eye on him at the moment but he can be quite challenging at times.

What I mean by this is that he will repeat everything all day; a word out of a book, numbers or just a random word that he likes the sound of.

He will repeat his play routine also so if he wants to read a book and then count to 10 he will do this morning until night and he will get distressed if you try to play something else. At the park he will have his routine, where he runs, what he plays on and he will repeat this until we leave.

He is not communicating yet and cannot do many things for himself.

He started pre school a couple of months ago and he attends two days a week.

I have noticed a few things which concern me and I'll list them below...

When we arrive the pre school staff do not greet DS but they pick up the other children and show them how excited they are to see them, they will only greet DS if I happen to catch their eye as I am walking in.

I had to stay for half an hour and list all of the things that DS may need help with and whilst I was there they were taking the register. They called DS to sit on the mat and he went over but had a toy in his hand, they took it off of him and told him to sit down. They were going through the names and when it came to my DS they repeated 'good morning DS' about 10 times getting louder each time they said it. DS can be very withdrawn and shy in front of people and they knew this as I told them everything I had discussed with the HV before he attended. DS sat with his head down and eventually the staff tutted and carried on with the register.

When I came to pick DS up, again he has a routine. He sees me says 'Mummy' and then goes and fetches 2 numbers to show me. The other children who were staying later were playing with toys and DS walked over to pick up the numbers he wanted to show me. A member of staff snatched the numbers off of him, bent over him and made the 'cut throat' sign and said 'finished' in a menacing way. DS then tried to hold her hands and jump up and down to play and she pulled them away, she was not aware that I was watching as I was collecting his extra pair of shoes.

As I was leaving another member of staff came out from the toilet area and said to another member of staff 'DS is sitting on the potty' (he is still in nappies and no where near ready to potty train yet) to which she replied 'bless'. I found this quite unusual too.

He is very excluded and all of the other children ignore him when we are lining up to go in whilst they play together, DS has tried to join in but they make no room for him.

I feel so sorry for DS and we are keeping an eye on him.

I formed the staff about DS straight away and they said that it was fine.

I just think that DS is being excluded. Maybe the staff get fed up of repeating themselves I'm not sure but I think they are not treating DS the same as the other children.

*there

Poor love I'm so glad you're not sending him back there. The ignoring when he went to hold her hands is awful. Good nurseries do not have favourites or treat children like they have your son and I would be complaining to manager. Hopefully your son will feel much better now he doesn't have to go somewhere he's clearly not getting the support he deserves.

Push for a paeds assessment. Once you are in the system there is so much support out there. I self referred by daughter for a speech assessment and from there we got a paeds assessment, speech therapy and play therapy, and my only concern about her is her speech. Your HV should refer you straight away. If she is hopeless then go to the GP and ask for a referral to the community paediatrician. Very young children are their speciality and they are much better than the general paeds at the local hospital when there are developmental issues involved. Search on the internet for details of your local community health team. This is my local one for example www.shropscommunityhealth.nhs.uk/rte.asp

If you have concerns about your sons development then as others have said speak to a nursery senco and they should be able to make referrals

However your current nursery doesn't sound as though it will be too helpful. Have they said anything about your ds and his routines etc since he started?

Hun, I'm not sure what the best way to say this is, so I'm just going to come out with it..
The behaviors your son is showing are consistent with the symptoms of autism, u need to see a pediatrician regarding this because he needs to b in a pre school that understands his special needs.... It's hard dealing with a child that requires a different way of learning things.. Please don't get me wrong in a lot of ways u r so very blessed autistic children are so very very smart, they just think differently to your average child and like things to b a certain way.
But with the treatment he is getting from that preschool I'd b worried he would become even more withdrawn and that's not a good environment for him! You are a fantastic mum picking up on their bad behavior towards your beautiful boy.
All the best and look forward to reading an update as to how he is going xxxx

Agree thatvypu need some professional involvement as your son is showing signs of atypical development.
Have you any experience of autism?
The main indicators are
Lack of communication skills
Lack of social skills
Repetitive behaviour
You can be refered to a speech and language therapist via your go or hv
You can also get portage support on your own home and he may be eligible for 2 yr funding.
He may also be given a support worker to support him on a one to one basis in a nursery
Have the nursery put him early years action or approached you about getting him assessed?
Or have they carried out a 2 yr check?
If they have said nothing then it confirms that they are on fact rubbish and I wouldn't hesitate in taking him out straight away

Re - getting a referral, we raised our concerns with a HV who kept an eye on him for a short time until we contacted her again to say that we really felt we needed to have him looked at by a paediatrician. You can go via the GP but it depends who's most helpful. In our case, our HV was wonderful and I'm still grateful to her 2 years later. It's a hard place to be when you have concerns about your child, don't forget to look after yourself too.

I agree with moving him.

DS went to a preschool where he was treated without any compassion. My older children thrived there but it was so wrong for DS. He stayed for a full term and I really regret not taking him out sooner but I hadn't realised how bad things were until there was a party there.

I moved him to the local school nursery and it was so much better for him.

I'll make an appointment with the GP.

He had a nasty fall off of a high table when he was 1, could that have something to do with it? :(

Some of his more typical behaviours include; not following instructions, I have to repeat myself a lot if I want him to stay by me and every time I ask him to do so he will scream in frustration.
He doesn't like cuddles; there will be the very rare occasions when he does want a cuddle but it will only last for seconds.
If DS2 is on the floor he doesn't have any awareness of him at all and would walk straight over him, not out of spite just because he isn't paying attention.
He lines up toys how he likes them and will not drink a bottle until it round 'the right way'.
He doesn't understand why he cannot lay on DS2 for a cuddle and when I pick him up so he can cuddle him gently he gets quite distressed.
He can count to 100 without any support.
He doesn't want to watch TV programmes or films all he wants to do is flick through the channels with the remote and if you stop him he screams in frustration.
He will hysterically laugh at the smallest things, the other day it was a blinking light on my camera.
He eats everything in a certain order.
He can have moments where he sits still and just wants to be left alone for a while.
He cannot communicate what he wants and cannot put two words together yet.
He doesn't get excited about anything, like he is not grateful or enjoying himself but I know he is.
He is so gentle and wouldn't hurt a fly.

As with what I have listed above that is the behaviours the HV wants to keep an eye on.

Is it something I've done if he does need an extra bit of help? :(

MrsSmith It's nothing you've done and not his fall....I second the advice to get him out of that terrible nursery and into a better one....my friend's son is very like yours, he's just turned 4 now and his behaviour is so similar to that you describe...the repetition and the numbers...and things having to be "just so" and his little routine with the numbers etc.

He's just been diagnosed with High Functioning Autism...he's gifted at maths and as my friend says, though it was a shock...to begin with .she realises that he is happy little boy...he loves his preschool and they work hard to include him...he gets invitations to parties and though his friendships aren't traditional friendships, he does have them....to start with visit your GP or speak to your health visitor about getting him assessed.

An assesment will be the start of the journey to getting him the support he needs to come on in the best way possible. If you have more in depth questions, visit Mumsnet Special Needs where lots of parents have children like your DS who sounds gorgeous and very bright by the way.x

Take him out of the nursery. I've been in exactly your position. I removed DS and placed him elsewhere. It was still challenging butthe staff were kind and he was happy at the new setting, which is what matters. Trust your instincts OP.

The fall will not have done anything like that, rest assured contact your gp and go from there. Remember there's special needs boards on here you can ask for advice but I would suggest that a lot of his behaviours sound like they're on the Autistic Spectrum.

And once you've taken him out, tell Ofsted why - make a complaint. I agree with Maureen that it does sound an awful lot like he's on the autistic spectrum which only makes their behaviour even more horrifying

I know sweet fanny adams about autism but even I know that it's something you are born with it is not your fault.

It is also not a massive negative, to me it just seems to be a categorisation I suppose. Like some people behave in this way and some people another and understanding that is the key.

he sounds lovely, do you see the joy and wonder in him? Why would his differences in behaviour change that wonder and love and brilliance? That's what a goodnursery should see tge beauty that's there in the way it's there!

Sorry bit of a ramble

mrssmith it's definitely nothing you've done, please try not to think that. My ds2 was diagnosed with autism at 2.5 yrs and I kept thinking about a car accident we were in when he was 1 yr old. I've tried to fight the 'my son's difficulties are my fault' train of thought as I know they're not but it's hard. I think of as saving my emotional energy so I can spend it on my son!

from your description, you have more than enough examples to request a referral. If your HV doesn't agree then she's not good enough and you should see your GP. Take a list of all his behaviours just as you've listed here and get that referral.

Take him out, complain very strongly, and get your lovely boy a referral to the community paed as soon as possible. If your HV won't help, go to the GP. Don't delay, he needs seeing now.

Come over and see us on the special needs board. Lots of people like me (currently going through the diagnostic process with my 3.6yo DS) as well as some very experienced posters of older children.

My DS has some very quirky behaviours at nursery, btw (he likes to read the same magazines and books each time, avoids other children and uses a lot of immediate and delayed echolalic language (repeating what he's heard). The staff are warm and welcoming, they've had some extra ASD training since he joined and they work hard to include him. The SENCO (also the manager) is excellent and very supportive. If I thought they were mocking him, or showing boredom and frustration in front of him or the other kids I would be extremely angry. Utterly, utterly unacceptable and there are much better places out there.

And no, it's nothing you've done, promise. I know first hand it doesn't feel that way sometimes, though.

I haven't read everything - so sorry if I am repeating.
First take him out of that place - it is not good for him. You can write to OFSTED then if you want.
Book an appointment with your GP - where you request a referral to a paediatrician for an assessment.
Write down the things which concern you - start with what you have put here and add to it. Think especially about: how he communicated (good and bad), how he interacts with others (good and bad), his repetitive behaviour, how he has met his milestones, anything unusual about the pregnancy and birth, ask others about their impressions (honestly).

Do Not feel guilty! It is almost certainly nothing to do with banging his head as a baby or anything else.

If you get him help now it could make a huge difference to his life.

I'm back again!

It is so very much not your fault if your child does have special needs. And I agree with others, when I read your OP the first thing I thought was that your son is possibly on the autistic spectrum (like my DD).

She was diagnosed at 2.9 but she is now 4.5 and thriving. Your DS is going to need a very responsive childcarer and this nursery sounds like the opposite. My DD is in school nursery with a 1:1 support because she was diagnosed early. She has autism advisory teachers coming in to the school and supporting them to work with her. They have delivered autism training to all of the staff. I know of other children with special needs who had to start nursery without this support because they were not in the system yet. It is far better to know what is going on and to have the benefit of professionals to work with a nursery or school and back you and your child up if things go wrong.

PS. Just read your most recent post and oh God yes! DD did lots of those things. Massive red flags for autism. If you can get him a Paed appointment and write it all down as notes (medical history, all of the things you say above, when you first had concerns etc) it will speed up things dramatically for getting him seen, but they will almost certainly take several months so it's important to start ASAP.

I'd withdraw him immediately and complain.

Are there any children's centres with nurseries near you? They tend to have better qualified/paid staff and more experience of children with a range of needs, more ongoing training in good practice, more input from speech and language and other specialists etc.

My DS also did some of those things but absolutely no signs of autism. Kids are funny creatures sometimes.

I'd drag him out of that pre-school as it sounds awful and is certainly not cherishing your child.

It's nothing you've done and it may not even be autism - remember, posters are posting from their own experience, not because they can magically diagnose children through the internet

But if it is autism or any similar development issue, no good will come of a wait and see approach.

There are a number of things you can do right away:
Withdraw him from nursery

Phone your HV and say you want a referral. If she says no or 'wait and see' make an appointment with the GP. It is your right to have a referral.

Go over to the SN children boards here and have a look around. Lots of knowledge and lovely posters.

Start keeping a detailed diary - when you do get in front of the pead it's easy for things to fly out of your head.

Start reading up on autism and communication difficulties and reading about some of the strategies people use to manage behaviours. Even if your child ends up being completely fine, the strategies can't do any harm.

Go and give your boy a hug. He is still your lovely boy and he will always be your lovely boy.

In my experience, kids with ASD often love to climb and have no understanding of danger, so it seems more likely to have been the ASD called the fall - and not vice versa - IF he has ASD! Of course he might not.

I went through the gp to get my daughter referred to a paed, the whole process took a year to get a diagnosis

You will find a suitable nursery, I promise. Do you have any local parenting sites/FB groups etc where you could ask for recommendations?

I do agree that things are not going well, and that you should trust your instincts and remove him. However, there are a couple of points I think you should consider

• he is 2.5, that is quite young for pre-school. It is quite common for some children not to be ready at that age. There will be some children of 4.8 at the pre-school, and the little ones can feel quite intimidated and seem tiny and left out.

• Secondly, be careful how you phrase your complaint, should you decide to make one (personally I think perhaps a meeting with the pre-school manager might be a better idea). You say in your OP " I think they are not treating DS the same as the other children." but some of your complaints seem to be because they are treating him the same as other children. For example, the greeting when the register is taken, he rule probably is that all the children are required to reply, so the pre-school would claim he was being treated like everyone else. Pre-schools often have speech therapists visit; repeating 10 times getting louder could well be advice from one of them, you perhaps could ask for clarification whether that is the case before complaining? A well structured question - eg, "this loud and continued repetition seemed excessive and was clearly intimidating to my son, can you confirm whether the staff were acting on advice from a qualified speech and language therapist?" - can work better than a complaint. (The staff may well have tutted because they thought this advice was a waste of time and not fair on your DS) Similarly, your DS's routine at pick-up time. Presumably other children are not allowed toys after pick up time so the numbers were taken off him so he was treated like everyone else. The cut-throat gesture sounded like an attempt at signing "finished" to me. Check to see if it is before you complain about it specifically. (I must admit I don't like it if it is!) I would not advise complaining about someone saying "Bless" - I know people who use that all the time and it can sound patronising but I doubt it is meant so.

I am not saying don't complain, I am saying don't complain that they are not treating him the same as the others. You need to complain because you have told him he needs not to be treated the same as the others, but they are expecting him to respond in the same way as all the other children.