..To think there's a big difference between loving your children and being a 'good' parent.

[neverthebride]

Am I?. I hear 'oh, they're a good Mum/Dad' all the time and often what people mean is actually 'they love their kids'.

I have worked in mental health for almost two decades. The overwhelming majority of the people I've worked with have been excellent parents. Some haven't been and I've been around for so long now that I'm seeing the consequences of that in that the children of service users I used to work with are now adults with their own serious issues.

I can count on two hands families I worked with who had their children removed permanently. People talk about children being taken into care as if it happens all the time but ime it's not that common, nor am I necessarily saying it should be so.

With one exception in the cases I've known (extreme abuse) it was heartbreaking for all involved because although it was the right decision, they didn't love their children any less than anyone on this site. It was that they were unable to care for their children, often because of their own shitty lives.

But I constantly hear that someone is a good parent when they're NOT but they DO love their children and I think people get confused between the two.

I consider myself quite laid back really and many of the things I consider as not too damaging would be judged as terrible by others. I don't think occasionally drinking around kids is that bad for example. As long as the kids are being looked after and it doesn't result in fights etc. I also don't really care if someone smokes a spliff outside after the kids are in bed. I work in a big inner-city, it's rare if people aren't using something.

Occasionally getting angry with your kids just happens I think. Saying something you don't mean and apologising for it also happens I think. Not every family have bedtime routines, read stories, help kids with their homework or attend parents evenings. Would be great if they did but some don't and that's often because of their own poor literacy or not having 'parenting' demonsrated to them in childhood. I'm mentioning these examples to demonstrate I by no means expect parents to be perfect.

However, routinely having young kids in pubs for hours on end while you get pissed IS being a bad parent IMO. So is getting them out of bed while you're having a party and passing them round people so they then sleep in in the morning so you don't have to tackle your hangover too early.

Routinely swearing at them and you and your partner regularly swearing at each other during arguments or worse; violence.

Children going to nursery/school with bits of cannabis stuck to their socks and clothes.

Self-harming or taking overdoses so often that your children are too scared to leave the house in case they come home to find you dead.

These are not specific examples so I'm not breaching confidentiality in any way .Sadly I've known of numerous cases like this.

A man having two dozen (yes, really!) children by multiple partners, many of which are born within months of each other. This is a specific example from my personal life!. Acknowledging they are all your kids and bunging their Mother's a few quid does not NOT make you a great Dad!!!. The fact more than a third of your progeny is in prison should point to this fact!!!.

All of the families in the above scenarios love their children, want a happy life for them etc but that does not make them good parents does it???.

I see it on this site too. Tales of awful behaviour by partners/other family members with the added 'but they're a brilliant Mum/Dad'. No!!!! I am sure they love their children but they are NOT a great parent!!.

AIBU?.

Obviously not
Bit of an odd post though. Maybe this vent would be more appropriate within your group of professional colleagues? I know you aren't being specific but still.

Not that much to do with my profession now as not working in that sector anymore (and yes, work is much less distressing now).

Very common occurrences in life for a lot of people I think; depending on where you live I guess. Post undoubtedly triggered by my current life though;seeing a man with 26 siblings (none of which ever lived with Dad) who goes on about how great his Dad is all the time!!.

It just reminded me how often I'd heard 'but....they're a great Mum/Dad' before.

You are right. Loving your children is not enough and does not make you a good parent

I think people sometimes forget that you often have to be cruel to be kind. They are also deeply worried that their children will not love them anymore if they are thwarted or refused anything.

You are spot on. I once had a social worker tell me that 'he's such a good dad' when he had almost killed his child's mother in front of the child!
I did stop her and tell her I didn't think he could possibly be a good dad after what he'd just done. However you are right, she meant he loved his daughter.

Exactly mygrand. I'd hear it all the time from other family members (and occasionally from HCP too like you did) 'oh, they all cuddle up and watch films'. Absolutely they do, they love their kids but I think that's different to being a 'good parent'.

And I'm not apportioning blame or judging. Just saying that loving your children and being a 'good parent' are often very different things.

Completely agree with you

I completely agree. I know a family who lost their children into care. They were very loving parents, but they lacked the capacity to provide the safe and stable household that their children needed. They couldn't be good parents because their judgement skills were so poor.

True. I went through a family court case with one woman. I liked her a lot and even though she knew she couldn't really be a parent it was utterly tragic. She cried every day and I cried every day when I got home. She loved her child no less than any other Mother but she could not care for her child. She would not be a good parent no matter how much input from outside but it was so, so distressing.

I've seen a lot of sides of this. I've worked with violent men who would never in a million years hurt their children but were often deemed 'good Dads' because they were attentive, supportive and kind around their kids. All those things were true but being verbally or physically abusive towards Mum or others made me think they weren't 'good Dads' at all. It's hard for a lot of people to see the bigger picture sometimes and that's why I started this thread.

Love is an action, not some random feeling.

I have no doubt that dd's parent and family have the odd passing feeling for dd but it's mostly shown as being shirty with SS or slagging off the foster carers looking after all their children.

Love is about putting their needs first, it's that simple.

I agree with that Laurie.
Ds's dad always says he loves DS. In fact most people I know say "Oh, but at least he does love DS)" However, I think that the fact that he has consistently put himself first, and never, ever financially supported his child points to the fact that he doesn't love him enough.
So, yes OP, many people who are not good parents do love their children-to a degree-but not enough to actually make any kind of sacrifice, or put the child first.

You are talking from your experience, neverthebride, but when I saw the headline I immediately thought of several well-off parents I know who have brought their children up to be totally selfish or others who have overprotected their children so much that as young adults they fall prey to all kinds of dangers because they are anything but street-wise.

I understand your point.

However what constitutes 'good parenting' is massively socially constructed.

I don't know how much you know about the history of the family but I have read a lot on this subject and have found that it really changes your perspective when you remove the cultural lens when observing parenting practices.

Even reading childcare manuals from the 30s shows what was then considered good parenting would now be abuse.

Future generations may think the same about us!

When it comes do dealing with vulnerable families, if they love their children, then I think we should be providing and enabling them with practical help and support so that they can learn good parenting.

This is the approach in Norway and I'd rather professionals adopted this approach instead of the more judgemental attitudes many seem to demonstrate.

We may not like other styles of parenting, but it is a compromise I'm wiling to take for a free society where people don't need £££ and/or licences to procreate.

You're right Mexican. Applies to many families from many backgrounds.

'Loving your kids' and being a 'good parent' aren't always one and the same regardless of the background.

Children thrive in organised, purposeful homes with adults in charge who are warm, responsible and firm. Love is not the same thing as care.

I think being a 'good enough' parent is putting your child's needs first and foremost. You must love, teach and discipline.

However I agree totally with weatherall parenting trends and methods change radically through the generations.

Some on here regard controlled crying as

I prefer the term 'good enough' parent to good parent.

I've not known someone to be described as a good parent just because they love their children. Nobody would have said my MIL was a good parent (apart from herself maybe) but I'm sure she loved her children. She loved herself more though and put her own needs first. I think that is usually the difference between "good" parents and "bad" parents. The bad parents may love their children but not enough to put them first.

It's true. YANBU. Capacity to feel love is not the same as having the emotional capability to recognise and meet a child's needs.

An extreme analogy would a woman who cares about an ill relative in need of heart bypass surgery very much. Her love wouldn't magically endow her with the ability to perform heart surgery, so professional intervention is needed. Most of the time (although by no means all), bringing up contented happy children in a safe environment is a lot simpler than performing heart surgery, but it still requires a bit more than love to do it.

Weatherall - I agree and that's why I think I have what many people would deem a 'liberal' view of parenting. Despite that, I think there are a lot of behaviours which I think don't constitute 'good parenting'.

In many cases, parents are only replicating their own childhood experiences and they often need help and guidance. I of course advocate giving that help. Sometimes help doesn't change behaviour too much though.

I have honestly never encountered a case of ineffective or damaging parenting where there was no reason for that (as in parents own childhood abuse/neglect or MH/substance issues). I have not met a person who was just being inadequate for the sake of it, not one.

I've worked with a lot of service users and looking back, I cared about damaged parents so much that were REALLY trying that I sometimes gave less thought into how the situation was for their kids. They seemed ok, clean, fed, loved.

Now I'm seeing these kids as adults with a lot of problems themselves I think we sometimes fucked up to be honest. And that's hard for me to say. We NEVER ignored overt abuse or neglect and often SS were involved but we did put a lot of input into making things better for parents. Sometimes that worked great and made life better for the whole family. Sometimes it didn't. Sometimes it made life better for the parents and that didn't always impact on the kids too much.

Sometimes a lot of input was given to the parents but for the kids; the damage was already done. In a lot of cases, parents are given help but it comrs too late for the kids.

I have honestly never encountered a case of ineffective or damaging parenting where there was no reason for that (as in parents own childhood abuse/neglect or MH/substance issues). I have not met a person who was just being inadequate for the sake of it, not one.

Maybe bad parents who had good childhoods and no MH/substance abuse problems don't come to the attention of social services though.. Nobody official seemed to notice that my MIL wasn't a good parent apart from her mother/siblings who tried to do the job she should have been doing.

I understand your point and I absolutely agree with you.

I gather all OP is saying is that screwed up people love their children as much as anybody else, also the children love those parents as much as any parents are loved. Which is why social services try to work to fix families & not break them apart (for the most part). And vilifying people is pretty pointless.

I didn't realise that was News to many, but maybe so. (My mother worked in CPS, though).

I've no idea what it takes to be a good parent any more. I'm apparently the worst mother in the history of all mothers. Yet it seems to be completely impossible to do the right thing as doing the right thing seems to involve doing the complete opposite things at the same time. Also some of my crimes against parenting are things I feel were completely outwith my conscious control.

The family courts are a fucked up joke. My XH is apparently a wonderful father yet this is the man who uses dd to relay death threats, doesn't use the seat belt on her in the car, goes out and leaves her to baby sit her younger half siblings (she's 8), has reduced contact because it's too much hassle to look after her (unless he wants her to do stuff) yet insists on highly restrictive court order against me because he loves her so much, he tells her learning is for saddo and many more. Yet he is apparently a perfect parent.

Oh yes I'm bitter and please don't flame me for being a crap parent.

but you see how much is definite about what is good parenting, and how much is just opinion. I don't agree with all yourexamples of what a good parent 'should ' be doing.
For example, why do you think it is great to help your DC with your homework? I don't think that is good at all.Homework is about teaching children to develop independent study habits.I teach them that their homework is their responsibility.Why on earth is a bedtime routine necessarily good?If it's nice evening we might stay out as long as poss and then make up time with a quick tooth brush, PJs on and jump into bed.In other cultures story telling is a lot more prevalent than reading stories, I don't see this as worse for children's literacy and in fact probably better.

Yanbu. I have seen people who say they love their children put their need for a relationship, fun, drugs and alcohol before those children. They have let them go hungry, be exposed to horrific violence, become dirty and desperate for attention. These people could never be classed as good parents, but they say they love their children.

However, I have a different view of what classes as loving your child. I feel that if you love your child then you wouldn't let them be neglected in the ways I have described. If you were unable to look after them properly then you would seek help, not let them suffer.