..To think there's a big difference between loving your children and being a 'good' parent.

[neverthebride]

Am I?. I hear 'oh, they're a good Mum/Dad' all the time and often what people mean is actually 'they love their kids'.

I have worked in mental health for almost two decades. The overwhelming majority of the people I've worked with have been excellent parents. Some haven't been and I've been around for so long now that I'm seeing the consequences of that in that the children of service users I used to work with are now adults with their own serious issues.

I can count on two hands families I worked with who had their children removed permanently. People talk about children being taken into care as if it happens all the time but ime it's not that common, nor am I necessarily saying it should be so.

With one exception in the cases I've known (extreme abuse) it was heartbreaking for all involved because although it was the right decision, they didn't love their children any less than anyone on this site. It was that they were unable to care for their children, often because of their own shitty lives.

But I constantly hear that someone is a good parent when they're NOT but they DO love their children and I think people get confused between the two.

I consider myself quite laid back really and many of the things I consider as not too damaging would be judged as terrible by others. I don't think occasionally drinking around kids is that bad for example. As long as the kids are being looked after and it doesn't result in fights etc. I also don't really care if someone smokes a spliff outside after the kids are in bed. I work in a big inner-city, it's rare if people aren't using something.

Occasionally getting angry with your kids just happens I think. Saying something you don't mean and apologising for it also happens I think. Not every family have bedtime routines, read stories, help kids with their homework or attend parents evenings. Would be great if they did but some don't and that's often because of their own poor literacy or not having 'parenting' demonsrated to them in childhood. I'm mentioning these examples to demonstrate I by no means expect parents to be perfect.

However, routinely having young kids in pubs for hours on end while you get pissed IS being a bad parent IMO. So is getting them out of bed while you're having a party and passing them round people so they then sleep in in the morning so you don't have to tackle your hangover too early.

Routinely swearing at them and you and your partner regularly swearing at each other during arguments or worse; violence.

Children going to nursery/school with bits of cannabis stuck to their socks and clothes.

Self-harming or taking overdoses so often that your children are too scared to leave the house in case they come home to find you dead.

These are not specific examples so I'm not breaching confidentiality in any way .Sadly I've known of numerous cases like this.

A man having two dozen (yes, really!) children by multiple partners, many of which are born within months of each other. This is a specific example from my personal life!. Acknowledging they are all your kids and bunging their Mother's a few quid does not NOT make you a great Dad!!!. The fact more than a third of your progeny is in prison should point to this fact!!!.

All of the families in the above scenarios love their children, want a happy life for them etc but that does not make them good parents does it???.

I see it on this site too. Tales of awful behaviour by partners/other family members with the added 'but they're a brilliant Mum/Dad'. No!!!! I am sure they love their children but they are NOT a great parent!!.

AIBU?.

YANBU I completely agree and understand and appreciate every word you write.

As for the poster who says parenting fashions have changed, I completely disagree that this is relevant here. Neglect, being on drugs/drunk looking after kids and abusewas never ok in the history of parenting as far as I'm aware.

yanbu

my mum was very loving but not a good parent

YANBU

I believe that love is an emotion, not an action. I can't believe otherwise. I'm coming into this as an adoptive parent btw. My second daughter, now 18, loves me, I know she does. But because of her significant emotional issues, those emotions don't always translate into actions which signify love. Agression and calling me the worst names under the sun and pushing me away, or playing me off against her birth mum - well, it's not nice, but I'd defy anyone to try and say my daughter doesn't love me

And on the parents side, I couldn't see DD2 and her birth mum hugging like they did when they met early last year, I couldn't talk to her birth mum about DD2...without seeing and hearing love there. I know her birth mum does love DD2 in her way. It's just that love is an emotion, and that's never ever good enough alone, and for all her love, DD2 now has long term, likely life long, emotional and mental health issues etc

It's very difficult with discussions about adoption and the care system though, you always come against people saying that love is all, and it's always wrong to seperate children from parents when they love each other. And it's very naive. Love is not a panacea

I agree lilka there are only so many chances you can give parents. You can lead a horse to water etc but in the end if they are not doing a good enough job then, the child's long term best interests may not be to stay with a loving but crap parent.
It is difficult to find that fine line though.

I think it must be a challenge for those involved in social work to draw the line between satisfactory parenting and inadequate parenting. Children often love abusive parents and find going into care traumatic. Certainly the corporate parent is not an ideal parent.

Even Baby P's mother loved her children in some weird and fucked up way. I agree that love is an emotion rather than an action.

Yanbu. You make a very good point

My parents were both heroin users and my siblings and I lived through all the chaotic dysfunction that comes with that sort of home life, but I have no doubt that they loved us.

Unfortunately, that love alone wasn't enough for them to take the appropriate responsibility for themselves or us, and in no way could they be described as having been good parents.

This is very different from the usual every day parenting choices that we make that we feel define us as a good or bad parent. Your examples are spot on re homework, parents evenings ect. The truth is that unfortunately some parents are simply unable to keep themselves and/ or their children safe. My parents often attended sports days, assemblies, open evenings. We had very strict bedtimes. On any given morning we could have woken up to find one or both parents dead of a heroin OD (thank god that this never happened to us although I think the constant worry definitely took it's toll!)

Yep. I work with drug addicts. All their children are in care. They love them so much, but can't care for them properly.

Love may well be an emotion, but it is only experienced by those supposedly loved through actions or words of that person who loves them.

There may be some parents who do not love their children in a conventional sense perhaps because of a disability or that they have different kinds of feelings than other people but who care for them well enough, very well. That presumably would be bad for the child, perhaps worse than the parent who loves, cuddles but does not quite do the mechanics of being a parent very well - gets them to school late etc. As the child feels loved in the latter case but not in the former with the perfect but totally emotionally cold parent the scatty but loving parent is probably the better one. Of coruse when scatty gets to utterly neglectful then it's totally different.

Also there are some "goods" which we all agree on - enough food, cuddles etc and some which people differ over - I can say no to my children. I don't give in to everything. Some parents seem to treat their child like a friend whom they constantly placate.

When it comes do dealing with vulnerable families, if they love their children, then I think we should be providing and enabling them with practical help and support so that they can learn good parenting.

That does happen, but some people lack the ability to be able to make use of it. The help and support is not always welcomed and is often rejected. Some parents get very angry at the slightest implication that they are doing anything wrong.

This isn't really about parenting styles, it is more about ability to raise the child in a way that aims to keep them safe from emotional or physical abuse whilst creating an environment that enables them to thrive.

It's about knowing that allowing your 5yr old to cross the main road alone, is unsafe, even if you did it as a child.
Or leaving your toddler unsupervised in the bath, is not wise.
Or deciding that a faith healer is the best way of dealing with your child's illness.

It's not about whether you help your children with their homework, or have a lax routine or let them stay up late on a weekend.

Sadly some people simply lack the mental capacity to be parents without a lot of support. For example a parent with substantial learning difficulties can not problem solve or antispate danger. A person who is incapable of crossing a road can't take responsiblity for a baby.

A parent with a cognitive level of a six year old may love their baby however someone so disabled can barely look after themselves yet alone a baby.

YANBU.

I remember seeing a pic of Peter Connelly dressed up olde world style for a photo shoot and being quite surprised that she obviously had enough affection for him to go to the trouble of having that done, but couldn't quite go the extra mile to stop him from being murdered.

Extreme example I know, but still.

I have honestly never encountered a case of ineffective or damaging parenting where there was no reason for that (as in parents own childhood abuse/neglect or MH/substance issues). I have not met a person who was just being inadequate for the sake of it, not one.

I have a sibling brought up in the same household as me who is an appalling parent. She 'loves' her kids but they have nearly been taken away from her more than once. No MH issues.

YANBU, love is sadly not always enough if people don't have the skills,,capacity or whatever to care for their children.

It's heartbreaking when you know the love is there, but in Thr as you said rare cases where the kids are removed, the parents are failing them.