to think working parents don't 'do all the things SAHPs do plus work'?

[Sampanther]

I've heard this response an awful lot, particularly to that awful 'being a SAHM is the hardest job in the world' advert. I have worked outside the home and been a SAHM and I do not feel that working meant I did all the parenting plus work on top. For example, as a SAHM parent I'd deal with squabbling, tantrums, discipline, naps, take them to parks/soft play etc and help them to play nicely with other children, cook with them, do painting and play doh and so on.

As a working parent I had an hour of getting them ready in the morning, dropped them off at childcare, then an hour of winding them down and putting them to bed at night. I could eat and go to the toilet in peace during the day, the house was tidy and needed little cleaning as we were rarely in it and I had very little to do with discipline etc.

I'm not trying to say working parents don't parent, because obviously they do but AIBU to think parents who work fulltime don't 'work and do all the parenting as well'? I don't get why working mums respond that way and think they're right but if a working husband came home and said to his stay at home wife that he does just as much parenting as her then I'm sure mumsnet would not agree.

I know quite a few sahm of school aged children

I am not quite sure what they do all day but seem happy just I can not help thinking what if you have a big life change what are you going to do how will you support yourself

I have work p/t and study so nearly full time hours have done since ds was 2 and still do all that the op has stated in her post. you learn to do things in less time and for me after 18 months I was desperate to do somethng other than parenting

(I don't mean the mothers of small school-aged children who are jobseeking and volunteering/interning BTW I mean SAHMs of school-aged children who plan to continue)

Nursery Nurse, Nursery Management, creche for parents who are at college. Doubt there would be a stampede most people get stressed at one or two children. It doesnt bother me though as at home its like being in a library with just my own compared to my average day

I think there's a few issues going on.

• there are an awful lot of women posting on here (not this thrad mn in general) who have been forced into sahm either by finances with the cost of Childcare or by feeling they would let their children down if they didn't, despite it not being what they really want.

• there are conversely some women who can't afford to give up work although there seems to be less of them at the moment than the need to give up work due to the cost of Childcare

• there are s lot of people who view the Childcare costs as coming out of the woman's salary alone (I would be working for nothing)

• there are people like a poster up thread who think poor DH should have no housework to do as he works, it's nicer for hi to do nothing. That devalues the Childcare aspect surely - housework is a separate thing, and all adults should be helping out with it?

• there are also a lot of women posting on MN who actually don't think their partners are very good fathers, and won't let them parent effectively, make decisions about their children etc.

And yes they all link in...

I am going to confess to a bit of a raised eyebrow at the ease with which some previous posters think they will return to teh job market, despite no current experience, even with the best possible qualifications. And even assuming they do, there are still years of career progress that have been lost.

And that assumes that all mothers actually have careers as such - many people just work because they need to pay the bills, and will never have high earning potential or career progression.

Yes I've read that on mn too,the discussion of mother can't afford childcare,but has a partner
Childcare costs should be proportionately shared.it's not a sole cost to the mother

Without contradicting myself about my earlier point, that families should do what works for them, and not agonise over other people doing things differently... There is one point I do feel very strongly about. I've seen the attitude which RhondaJean describes, whereby some women feel they are the 'more significant' parent, and the father gets sidelined and isn't allowed to do all the things the mother does. I accept that it's a small minority who feel this way, but it stinks. I feel very sorry for fathers who are viewed like this, though more sorry for the children who are denied the chance to have parents who value eachother equally and allow eachother to build an equal bond with the children.

The only thing my DH couldn't do regarding childcare and domestic activities, was breastfeeding (though he could of course feed our children bm from cup or bottle) Aside from that, he's always done everything I have. Why wouldn't he? He's equally capable. And just to clarify: I don't think that means all couples should do exactly the same all the time in order to be equal. I only worked 3 days a week until my youngest was 4, so naturally I changed more nappies, cooked more meals and did more housework during those years.

But I do feel very sorry for couples where the starting point seems to be that the mother is 'parent number one'

- there are people like a poster up thread who think poor DH should have no housework to do as he works, it's nicer for hi to do nothing. That devalues the Childcare aspect surely - housework is a separate thing, and all adults should be helping out with it?

I'm only talking about mums of school age children who don't work-it's not fair to compare mums with pre schoolers-but if they aren't doing the housework, what are they doing?!

Surely that makes them a housewife and not a sahm then though rollon?

I would actually make the distinction between those with pre-school children and those with children in full time education as sahm & housewife.

Apart from those with carer roles (and children with sn who are at school, as those few hours are precious I would imagine), if does seem odd when women choose not to work when the kids are at school. I include study, volunteering, taking a role in family business etc as 'work' obviously.

There are quite a few housewives where I live.

Why is it odd? Not everybody is ambitious or wants a stressful career. I don't need a career to define or validate myself. I am comfortable being me. I have the time and money to do whatever I want. I love being a housewife. I think a lot of people would if they could afford it.

On the other hand it's not odd if people do want to work. We are all different and get satisfaction from different things.

I think it odd, because I know that if I weren't working I would at least be doing something whilst the kids were at school. Whether it be helping out at the school, working a few hours a week in a charity shop or doing meals on wheels or something.

If I was in the position where I didn't want to or have to work, and 'had the time and money to do whatever I want', I like to think I would give up a few hours of my quality time to give back to others.

Ignoring odd or not, I think it's important to differentiate between people who are happy to be housewives, stay at home and Hoover and people who sahm for the children sake.

For the purpose of debate at least.

I think when people are saying they can't afford the childcare they don't mean they are necessarily responsible for paying it themselves, but between them and their partner it wipes out a full wage. many think its not worth working under these circumstances.

I would also like to say I am not the only sahm who doesn't spend the day doing housework and looking after dc.
I have several friends who do all kinds of things and it is important to remember that just because you aren't helping out at school or doing charity work you are not doing nothing.
I suppose its difficult for a wohp to understand what a sahp does.
We do the same as you do when you are on holiday and other things for the family.
I like it because if somebody needs something I can be there to help, if there's a problem that somebody hasn't time to sort out, if its within my capabilities I can help.
We can come and go as we please and if dd needs to be somewhere at 10am tomorrow I could get her there, whereas dh isn't completely flexible.
It works for us.

Absolutely Rhonda but as a SAHM or former SAHM, it is absolutely lethal on here to point out that one did for the DC's sake and just lived with the poverty and intellectual frustration that came with it (all true of me). Sure fire recipe for getting flamed by enraged WOHMs.

I really dont understand why anyone would choose poverty or intellectual frustration to stay at home. I wouldnt want my own mum to have lived like that and passed all that guilt and missed chances on to me. Fine if you want to stay at home but why sacrifice all that for something your children wont even remember or care about?

You POV is valid. Except.... I do do all that a WOHM does with school aged children. Apart from the hour in morning DS at breakfast club and the hour he's at after school club I work term time only so have him all holidays. If I didn't work I'd only be doing an extra hour a day (the after school bit) because we get up earlier because we leave at 7.45am.
Added to that I'm a LP and DS has SN so I probably do more 'patenting' than most parents of 9yos!

The idea of needing a job for validation is weird. Surely we all get validation from a whole range of experiences. I get validation as a parent and as a wife, through various achievements, and yes, through my career as well. Surely life is about wanting a range of experiences, and we have a sense of 'self' through all of them.

My mum did live like that jasmine and I carry a heavy burden as an adult, because it's quite clear to me she had certain expectations of me both as a child and now as an adult and I don't match them.

And that she gave up an awful lot to try to mould me to what she wanted, and is quite bitter I am not.

Janey! That's the well rounded ideal - where problems come is where you derive all your validation from one area of life, be that work or motherhood, and I'm prepared to argue that sahm will be more likely to do that.

I did it jasmine as it was very very clearly what both DC needed.

No idea what guilt you are talking about. Do you mean them feeling guilty for my choices? No have decent parent would let that happen. And anyway I really enjoyed it as well as missing my career.

I don't feel that I missed any career opportunities either (I am lucky enough to have a doctorate and choices and kept my hand in) although I'm sure I missed the odd thing and my brain was a bit bored sometimes and I've never 'enjoyed' housework much. It was completely worth it though - the pros outstripped the cons - and I would make the same choice again. The penny pinching didn't kill us and my career now has a second wind.

You're right that DC won't remember their preschool years clearly or in detail (which is why the 'good example by working' argument always seems off the point) but as an NNEB you surely think pre-school care matters?

jasminemai

I suppose the people who do this (like I did) don't really see it as such even though others may do, if that makes sense.
If I'd have looked at it like that I'd have been straight down to the job centre as its quite a negative thought.
I'm sure some people think I am mad and that I have made lots of sacrifices, but I don't think I have, and would certainly never pass on guilt of missed chances to my dc.
I hear you though and have heard of some people doing this.
I know mine will remember and care because the older ones have told me they appreciate me being a sahp when they were little, and dd loves being at home with mum and dad.
But everybody is different, it wouldn't do to all be the same.

The point is Rhonda that, as you said, some people's starting point is what is best for the DC and they fit other things around that for 4/5 years.

It would be hard to get depressed or bitter or resentful about four short years of relative skintness and occasional tedium, if you believe in the importance of the reason that you are doing it. Being compelled to do it would be rather different I imagine.

Children are all different anyway; different things suit different toddlers. If I had thought nursery would suit my toddlers, I would have done that and returned to work. It's not complicated.

Fid I would like to think most people's starting point is what is best for the children. I know mines is.

That's actually a horribly patronising post now I re read it.

Mine or yours?

It's just how it was. I normally refrain from describing it, as I don't want people to 'hear' implied criticism that isn't there. It was just my thought process and reasoning at the time, which I stand by. For us. Nobody else.

If I had started from the central premise that we would be homeless without my earnings or that five years at home would send me over the edge, then doubtless I would have made a different decision. As it was we bought second hand clothes, ate a lot of lentils and made our own play-dough and managed. We were lucky to have the option. Nothing patronising about it.

If I had had the option of free GP care 1/2 days per week, I would have taken it but I didn't. So many variables.