to resent well off 60+ people that get free unlimited bus travel

[SuzzieScotland]

I can't afford a car, so I walk, cycle or bus everywhere.

The bus costs almost a pound a mile so it is seen as a treat for me.

A yearly ticket is 1000 or if your a student you can buy a £12 bus I'd card every year and get a yearly ticket that costs 750. This seams far too expensive.

Yet I see many pensioners who run two cars using the bus to get into town or to the airport totally free despite being well off. I think their would be uproar if a 20 pound admin fee a year was applied to these bus passes. In London a year ticket is 3k but anyone over 60 gets unlimited tube and bus despite 100000s of them still in full time work.

Just seams like the young and poor are getting a very raw deal to win grey votes.

ludways, I don't think we're in a position to subsidise perks just because they're "a nice thing" any more.

Child benefit was a "nice thing" for us as a family, but we no longer get it because one of us is over the threshold for eligibility. That universal benefit has been mean tested, so it's a puzzle as to why the same doesn't apply to all of them.

I've only read page 1 but I'm and about the vitriol aimed by some posters at a large and diverse group of people. I'm not talking about people discussing the idea, but those displaying real bitterness.

All those crying out to get an entire section of society lose the few perks they've worked all their lives for. Remember you will be old one day soon.

Think about that before you start crying for people to be stripped of any dignity out of some kind of weird jealousy

Some of this makes very unpleasant reading.

Maybe we should all just die and stop being a drain on resources. Or maybe we should get rid of the pass and all child benefits for everyone. After all having children is a choice. No one has to do it. If you can't afford it without my taxes propping you up, don't do it.

But we all have to get old.

Ploppy - That issue with age related benefits though, will always be there. I have met 80 year olds who go hill walking, and 80 year olds who can't dress themselves without help. If most people think your father is much younger than he is, then he is fortunate. Age related benefits are calculated on the average person of that age, rather than the exception like your father.

I'm not aware of any "vitriol", "stripping people of their dignity" and so on on this thread, except from those who claim that anyone thinking the system should also be supporting those on low incomes is anti-pensioner.

I've suggested (upthread if you have just joined and haven't read the whole thread) a flat £1 fare for pensioners, so that fares could be reduced to make public transport affordable for families on low incomes.

Not sure who the "my taxes propping you up" comment was aimed at morgause, but if it was me, nowhere did I say means testing CB was unfair and we needed it to survive. I just said means testing all universal benefits would seem more logical, so targeting those who need it most.

I posted my Dad's viewpoint a bit further down, this is mine.
It's not vitriol or jealousy that makes me support that view at all. My Grandma also has a bus pass. She uses it everyday even though she insists she doesn't need it as much as I do. Her opinion is that children at school should get free travel instead. However she has anxiety issues and wouldn't leave her flat if she didn't have the incentive of using the pass.

I think we need to stop viewing pensioners as white haired little old Grannies and Granddads who knit or potter in the garden. Many still work. Many I know have a better quality of life now than they did when they were younger. Many, many more do not though and the extra help should go to them IMO. Nobody should have to chooses between being warm and being fed regardless of age. The extra should be going towards making sure our elderly and most vulnerable are taken care of and families in need are helped.

I know it's idealistic, and frankly unrealistic, it's just my opinion.

Of course people aren't saying that Iseenyou.
The things you mentioned aren't 'perks'.

Xposts Grennie, I see your point.

It seems so very mean spirited to have a go at pensioners' bus passes. The overall cost is very small compared to other benefits. I know many who don't claim them because they drive or rarely use the bus. That's a choice well-off pensioners can make. You only get it if you apply.

But for many others, especially in rural areas it's an absolute life line to lunch clubs and shops. The fact that young people choose to have children and have to pay bus fares isn't the fault of the elderly.

Why are people going crazy over the idea of means testing a benefit? I knew countless people would liken taking bus passes off wealthy pensioners to killing them.

Working hard isn't something only pensioners do, in fact younger people are working harder and longer than the previous generations and will get a lot less out.

I work hard, I can't afford to buy a property, can't afford children, can't afford a car and now can't even afford the bus. The state pension age keeps rising so I expect to be working into my 80s.

What is so wrong about adjusting welfare to make it less like a pyramid scheme where the young on the bottom are loosing out?

Suzzie, sorry it simply isnt true that working class people now are working longer hours. Working class people in the past had longer working hours on average, than people now.

I actually think free bus passes probably save taxpayers money overall. Many people don't use them. But I suspect it does encourage lonely elderly people to visit clubs more. Being lonely when you are elderly, is as dangerous for your health as being a heavy smoker.

Historically the elderly do not like to claim means tested benefits. There are many who do not claim benefits they are entitled to because to those brought up in the 40s and 50s it's "charity".

It was a very proud generation who rebuilt this country after the war years. They worked harder than most of the next generation can even imagine.

Young people today work harder than the elderly did? Don't make me laugh, utterly ridiculous.

Virtually all working class jobs used to be 6 days a week.

Working longer hours? In days gone by people worked 16 hours a day including weekends and had one day holiday per year!

morgause I think you're being deliberately obtuse.

No one is suggesting pensioners are to blame for low-income families having to pay extortionate bus fares. But surely you must see that universally subsidising the service for all over-60s, regardless of need, has an impact on the cost to all public transport users?

And if you think for a minute that the government supports perks like this for pensioners to give them a warm, fuzzy feeling about elderly people, you are deluding yourself. As many PP have said, again upthread, these are their core voters.

Also I know there are fit and comfortable elderly people who do not need a bus pass. I suspect the cost of assessment would be more than any saving. Means tested benefits are expensive to administer, especially when you can not use paye to assess income for most people. So everyone would have to complete a long form to apply for their bus pass. Many who most needed it, wouldnt apply.

And outside London, it is largely poor people who use buses. Making it a bus pass is already self selecting in many areas. I would be very unhappy for a national policy to be dictated by the situation in London.

Sshh If you need adaptions done to your car you can extend the lease to 5 years so you don't pay out as often. In fact any mobility car can have the lease extended to 5 years. We did on our current car as it has a huge deposit and we couldn't afford to pay a new deposit whilst we still needed a big car

Tiggy - IME on mumsnet, it is always well off people who make this claim, because their well off parents did work less hours. Some people seem incapable of looking beyond their own experience.

And truthfully, some children could do with much more exercise. Children these days have way less exercise every day than previous generations. So walking instead of getting the bus may actually benefit them.

That's why I suggested a flat £1 fare for pensioners, grennie. This would also fit with morgause's argument that pensioners are proud and many don't claim means tested benefits - this way, they are still paying a fare, just at a reduced rate.

I don't recall having to complete huge amounts of paperwork when our CB was stopped.

That's total rubbish about costing more to means test. Just give it to the poor pensioners that claim the additional state pension, easy and costs virtually nothing.

Many old people could do with more exercise, many here just get on the bus one or two stops as its free.

Are you on paye? Most pensioners arent. So they would need a form long enough to list all the different sources of income.

For working people, most are just on paye, very well off on self assessment. Only a small minority of people on paye have to request an extra form to declare other sources of income.