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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not want to be the minority where I live?

734 replies

Charlottehines · 12/04/2014 09:18

It really saddens me that in parks and soft plays with my children, that I am in the minority and my children can't play with other children there as they all play together and obviously can't speak English.
I'm in no way racist, my husband is of mixed origin but I do find it incredibly sad that my children are growing up the minority especially when these other groups make no effort to integrate with other mums or the children.
Am I completely unreasonable to feel sad about this?

OP posts:
SolomanDaisy · 17/04/2014 15:59

Customs.

YouTheCat · 17/04/2014 16:01

I can't imagine ever having a crisis of cultural differences. What other people do is of no concern to me so long as no one is waking me up and tbh even then I'd be reasonably tolerant anyway.

Maybe if everyone was more tolerant, unlike Left, then the world would be a much better place.

Dawndonnaagain · 17/04/2014 16:06

What the fuck has FMG to do with anything, or is it just you promulgating 'facts' for your racial bias?

Leftwingechochamber · 17/04/2014 16:06

What customs of mine do you imagine to be incompatible with yours exactly?

And the solution to our disagreement in terms of values is to import even more incompatible opinions, which differ to an even larger degree? Would it help if a Wahabi Muslim joined the discussion for example? Or a North Korean communist? Would this extra "diversity" of opinion make the range or opinions more or less compatible?

Dawndonnaagain · 17/04/2014 16:09

I would rather walk down the streets of England and not hear people who live hear (sic) speaking languages other than English

This, bearing in mind the society in which we live is wrong.

Would it help if a Wahabi Muslim joined the discussion for example? Or a North Korean communist? Would this extra "diversity" of opinion make the range or opinions more or less compatible?
Again, pursuing logical fallacies.

YouTheCat · 17/04/2014 16:12

Would it help if a Wahabi Muslim joined the discussion for example? Or a North Korean communist?

How do you know that they haven't? There are all kinds of people from all countries and cultures on the internet and on MN. You have no idea of the colour of someone's skin, their cultural background or country of origin unless they specifically say so.

BarbaraTheConeHairian · 17/04/2014 16:13

Government-driven immigration to the tune of several millions, if you can demonstrate a coinciding displacement of existing communities (you can, there are studies which have done so - and it has been described in tabloid terms), mirrors international law on ethnic cleansing/mass displacement/genocide.

The UN does not recognize the people affected (largely the population of England, really), as protected from that on the basis that they do not have a recognized ethnic identity per se, but be clear it is that legal distinction and no other which prevents someone from bringing a case under genocide law.

The reason I mention this is not to be as melodramatic as it no doubt sounds, but to point out that we have already got international law that speaks of doing this thing as a crime against humanity - indeed the history and behaviour of the anglo territories in large part gave rise to that. It cannot be evil to worry about having this thing done to your community.

SolomanDaisy · 17/04/2014 16:13

Well you seem a bit racist and you don't seem to value the benefits of international intellectual activity. Neither of those things fits with my values. I've just come back from a friend's house, she is Japanese. I think I probably have more in common with her than I do with you. For one thing we both assume that our children will benefit from learning each other's languages, as we assume they will live international lives in multi-cultural societies.

BarbaraTheConeHairian · 17/04/2014 16:14

should read "mirrors the wording of international law"

YouTheCat · 17/04/2014 16:17

Where are these displaced communities? Hmm

Communities have been affected by many, many different things - unemployment, closure of industries etc.

SolomanDaisy · 17/04/2014 16:21

I can only assume you don't know what genocide means barbara.

YouTheCat · 17/04/2014 16:23

Or ethnic cleansing for that matter.

Or mass displacement.

Leftwingechochamber · 17/04/2014 16:25

Soloman, I asked you what customs of mine are incompatible with your own, not what values. Of course people will always disagree on things. But if they come from radically different cultural backgrounds, those disagreements will be more pronounced, not less.

And it is perfectly possible that you identify with your Japanese friend more strongly than me, I never claimed race was the only facet of identity. But I am talking about general trends. If you picked two white people or two Japanese people at random, odds are that they would have more in common with each other than if you picked a white and Japanese person at random.

As for me being racist, again, this is name calling. Look, if you can point to an action that is problematic and informed by racial bias, the term "racism" may have some significance. But to simply describe my views as racist is no more serious a point than me dismissing your views as leftist crap.

YouTheCat · 17/04/2014 16:29

Loads of posters have pointed out specific things you have said that are racist.

If you don't like it, stop being racist on a parenting forum. Or take your views where they will be appreciated.

adoptmama · 17/04/2014 16:30

oh yawn ukipechochamber you do go on and on don't you?

You have been given links to research showing the socio-economic benefits of diversity to the life of a country. You have been given links to show the benefits of immigration and diversity to social capital. But you still claim you have not been given what you asked for or that this is not enough to show the social benefits. Bit sad that you still don't seem to actually understand what is written in front of you. Or, at least, that you choose to deliberately misunderstand.

Yawn, yawn, yawn.

You really are like a stuck record.

By the way you never asked for evidence that proves diversity leads to greater social cohesion. You asked for evidence to disprove your assertion it causes a lack of (long term) social cohesion.

There is a subtle difference of which you may - or may not - be aware. You keep being given what you asked for then moving the goal posts just ever so slightly to keep up the pretence that no-body has yet managed to answer your questions.

Do you really, really think anyone is fooled by you?

So now you want evidence that shows the positive, strengthening effects of multiculturalism on society?

Social fragmenation is higher in areas with economic deprivation, high unemployment, poor housing, competition for resources etc. Diversity can therefore become a factor - though not the defining factor or the dominant factor - in social fragmentation in areas which are already under stress.

Social cohesion does not refer to an absence of diversity but to bonds that give people a feeling of unity at community and national level. This is generally accepted to include common values, civic order, participation in a democratic process, a sense of belonging and equal opportunities. However since there is no single, accepted definition for social cohesion, or agreement on the indicators to measure it, research varies considerably. Research on the impact of diversity on social cohesion in Europe is therefore mixed. There is research that says that it is detrimental to social cohesion, there is research that says it does not have a negative impact, there is research which says it has a positivie influence. It very much depends on what indicators are used in the research.

However a common factor in British and European research is that it hasn't been able to conclusively resolve whether it is diversity per se or actually income (poverty) which is the issue. It may well be that income disparity rather than diversity are the cause of social fragmentation. This seems to be what European and British research leans towards showing.

Fieldhous and Cutts for example concluded that ethnic diversity assists in building more cohesive communities. Both Laurence and Heath, and Letki concluded that there is no strong evidence that diversity has a negative impact on social cohesion when economic deprivation is taken into account. Sturgis et al. and Twigg and Taylor both highlighted the fact it is economic deprivation rather than diversity than leads to social fragmentation. These findings are supported by the governments policy research too.

So.... if diversity and immigration provide an economic benefit (proven by research) and economic deprivation causes a loss of social cohesion, it could be suggested that social cohesion will increase with immigration due to the improved economic circumstances. Oh goodness, gracious me.

Social cohesion is generally accepted to indicate a sense of togetherness or belonging: the extent to which people feel accepted and able to contribute in their community.

It's ironic then isn't it ukipechochamber that people like you help foster the feeling in people that they do not belong, are not welcome etc are actually damanging to social cohesion.

You, it seems, are part of the problem. You are not the solution.

marfisa · 17/04/2014 16:34

Hmm, I note that BarbaraTheConeHairian, like Leftwingechochamber, has never posted anywhere on MN before apart from on this thread.

The most reassuring thing about this thread is that the voices of sanity and tolerance far outweigh the voices of narrow-mindedness and exclusion. Even the OP modified her stance eventually and said she would try to make more of an effort (good for you, OP).

So the attempts at shit-stirring haven't really worked. Grin

AndyWarholsBanana · 17/04/2014 16:34

It benefits children to grow up around those of different races, cultures, religions because it teaches them that everybody is a person first and foremost. If they have Muslim friends, they're less likely to be taken in by reading things about all Muslims being extremists etc.
Young children aren't racist, they may be curious about a child having a different skin colour but, beyond that, they just care whether they like them or not. Racism is something that is learned.
My DD 11 genuinely doesn't "get" racism, it baffles her. And I think part of the reason for that is that she's grown up with such a diverse group of friends.
I accept that we all have a tendency to be around "people like us" but, for me, that means people who like the same things and have a similar sense of humour. What race they are or where they were born really doesn't come into it.
And as for only being allowed to speak English in public???
I'm a HCP and our Consultant psychiatrist's first language isn't English. However, he is completely fluent in it as well as in 3 other languages. Does he pass the test?

adoptmama · 17/04/2014 16:37

and have we really acquired another 'just joined really' poster who thinks that immigration to England has led to genocide against the poor white folks who live there? And that the 'only reason' noone has raised this with the ICHR is because white English people aren't recognised as an ethnic group.

oh. dear. god.

how mind-blowingly moronic.

it doesn't even deserve a serious reply - it is so ludicrous.

Biscuit
marfisa · 17/04/2014 16:40

I know. Genocide. Genocide! Definitely not worth dignifying with a response.

YouTheCat · 17/04/2014 16:41

I suggested some puppetry at play much earlier in the thread. Seems I was right.

Dawndonnaagain · 17/04/2014 16:41

It's okay, they're back at school next week.

adoptmama · 17/04/2014 16:42

.... time for a very English

no wait, Chinese

or is it Indian

no, no Sri Lankan

Brew

Hope barbara the cone finds suitable therapy......

Leftwingechochamber · 17/04/2014 16:52

Adoptmama, I go on? You will notice that your posts are at least as verbose as my own, and that last one significantly longer.

No, I havent been provided with a single source that shows that diversity is beneficial to social capital, unless I have missed it. If so, it is a simple matter for you to provide that link again.

And ok, I should have been more precise. Rather than asking for evidence of diversity benefiting social capital, I originally asked for evidence to show it merely didnt have a negative impact. But its a moot point, because you havent provided that either.

As for blaming social fragmentation on economic deprivation, research I linked to, and which you still have provided no contrary evidence to, CONTROLS for precisely those kinds of variables, and the result holds in spite of this. If you read the link again, it clearly says other things being equal.

Moreover, its not even clear that it makes sense to control for economic inequality, given that immigration from poor countries clearly increases economic inequality. It is completely unrealistic to expect migrants from rural Pakistan or Somalia to average the same economic outcomes as the incumbent population.

Also, if I were to repeat the arguments of source almost wholesale, I might at least reference it:

www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/immigration-diversity-and-social-cohesion

BarbaraTheConeHairian · 17/04/2014 16:54

The displaced communities part is not actually in any way the "hard part" - it is fairly easy to show a redistribution of the existing British population away from areas which also bear the brunt of intake - this is in census data and studies have tried to make sense of it.

Nor is the definition of these terms the "hard part" - in fact they are intimately tied to one another, and destroying/displacing communities and culture in whole or in part is a pretty fair proposition when you have intentional immigration of a relatively enormous percentage of the population, and 600,000+ people moving away from the areas that take large amounts of that intake.

If you wanted to question it effectively, you'd probably want to say something like "well you can't show that this is intentional", or "well, the English are to all intents and purposes a mongrel race, so unlike other peoples who have been displaced from their homes by mass immigration they cannot be said to represent an ethnicity or arguably even a culture".

If you did do that, fair enough - as I said above but I'm not sure you absorbed, this would not be considered to qualify in itself because of an absence of ethnic identity. My point was (again I'm not sure you absorbed this, so my apologies if I wasn't clear) that the feelings of displacement are not absent because of these distinctions - a person is still a person and a community is still a community.

Being among the remnants of your community in an area now devoid of the people you went to school and grew up with, for instance, or where the culture and language have changed to the point where your family no longer fits in where it has been for generations, is something people are not wrong, or bad, or evil to feel sad or uncomfortable about. It is likely the same for somebody from Chiswick (randomplace) as it would be for someone from anywhere else.

YouTheCat · 17/04/2014 16:55

We don't need pages and pages of research to tell us you're a racist.

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