Question about gender change

[lougle]

If someone is making a transition to one gender from another, what does their sexuality relate to - their original gender, or their new one?

For instance, if a man is transitioning to become a woman, and is attracted to women, would that make them 'straight' or 'gay'?

If a woman is transitioning to become a man, and is attracted to women, would he then be 'straight' or 'gay'?

I'm likely to have to explain 'gender change' to my children, but it occurred to me that I really don't understand the 'gender' part of it at all.

I understand the physical processes and the medical timeline, etc. (ie. live as new gender for x period, medication, initial reassignment surgery, final reassignment surgery), but I don't understand how someone who has had gender reassignment would identify their sexuality.

I hope I haven't offended anyone - I may not have used the right terminology and may have been clumsy in the way I've asked the question.

But Grennie, haven't you read my posts? I was upset over this myself. The implication that women are silly and prudes if we don't want penises in our changing rooms and should just get over it.

Whether anyone "passes" or not is not the issue here, for me. I know women who have been taken for male because they are tall, wear unisex clothes, have short hair, etc etc. My own big sister was called "sonny" until she grew breasts big enough to be unmistakable. I don't care if anyone of any identity presents as stereotypically feminine or is taken as masculine. What I do care about is if they have a dick or not, and even then I only care if I am in circumstances where I am vulnerable, or feel vulnerable, to that dick.

Beanella, it's not up to you to determine how "uncomfortable" I, or any other woman, feels in relation to others. You really aren't qualified to pronounce on what is important for other people's safety or not, only on your own levels of comfort and safety. (And, of course, I look forward to your campaign on desegregating changing rooms entirely, as everyone is so modest and respectful in changing room, always.)

There are practical solutions to some of the issues. The traditional "public loos" debate (which I haven't raised until now, and which I don't think anyone else has) is pretty easily solved, for example, by having single unmarked stalls accessible to everyone, rather than groups of loos marked "men" and "ladies". But the base line should always be (and at the moment isn't) that women who don't want to be in intimate spaces with male genitals should not have to be in intimate spaces with male genitals.

Sorry Briar, I misunderstood. Trying to do things and MN at the same time.

Kim - The law says if someone identifies as a woman, they should be treated by service providers as one. Although there are a few exceptions. There have been cases of someone making no attempt to pass, using women's toilets and being allowed to because they say they identify as a woman.

Personally, I think in the UK there should be an improper person clause in the law, as there is in some US states. This means that those claiming protection for Trans persons for an improper purpose, would not be able to claim that protection.

If we accept that gender is a social construct, then we should accept I suppose that a born and raised man who lives as a man could one day assert that he is now a woman, and should be acknowledged as such, even if they make no change to their name, appearance or life. We don't though, so clearly those social constructs are relevant in some way. I don't see a difficulty in acknowledging someone with a male body as a woman if she lives as a woman, and that includes taking on some female constructs like appearance and dress. I'm not sure why she needs to do that but I suspect it's very strong conditioning.
I don't have a problem with a woman using a female changing room if she still has a penis. Women come in many permutations and I do believe that's one if them. But I do believe she needs to be a woman in some way that is apparent to most people, whether that's hormonal, dress, appearance or whatever.

I really don't get why the genitals are given so much importance.

I think saying MtoF can only use single sex segregated spaces where women get naked or semi naked, when they have no penis, would be a good compromise.

Ehric I'm glad you don't get why genitals are given so much importance. Long may that continue. Some of us are not so lucky.

Grennie - I think if you read Briar's other contributions you will see she is being sarcastic - no need to attack her.

Kim, I think that cubicle changing 'villages' are the way to go. However there are still lots of swimming pools and gyms (I can think of 3 in my immediate locality) where there are separate male/female changing rooms and they are open plan, with the only option for privacy being to change in a toilet cubicle.

If I were to notice a 'bulge' in swimwear in a female changing room, or be in an open plan changing room (where I would be naked for a good 5-10 mins while I dried myself off - I'm not a prude and have no problem with my own nudity - and see someone with male genitalia changing in there, it would disturb and possibly shock me, because it would be unexpected.

I've been in mixed showers before (chiefly at Glasto) and knowing that they were mixed, I made that decision and wasn't bothered. I think it's the having no choice in the matter that is the problem. It is reasonable, imho, if you go into an all-female changing environment, not to expect to see male genitalia.

And if I had PTSD like some of the women who have posted on this thread , no way would it be acceptable. I would hope that the transwomen in question would have the decency to accept that they may cause distress and avoid those pools/change in private.

I have to say whilst I understand (and sympathise with) body dysphoria, I am struggling to get on board with the 'I feel like a woman, I say I'm a woman, therefore I am a woman and everyone must accept me as such' viewpoint.

I don't 'feel' like a woman because women are not a homogenous group. The closest I come to shared experience of womanhood (apart from, depressingly, that of sexual harrassment) is when I'm on my period, having sex, trying for a baby, when I was finally pregnant and giving birth itself. All of which come down to biology.

Just saying something is so, doesn't make it so. You are entitled to your feelings, of course, but your feelings do not trump those of others and you are not entitled to make others feel uncomfortable to validate your feelings.

If genitals werent important, no Trans person would have genital surgery.

Lovecat, Grennie apologised, thanks both of you.

"You said that you understood the whole process and wanted to explain stuff in a nice way. Then other things came out about not accepting it."

I thought I understood ,'the process" meaning decision-hormones-surgery. It became clear that there is no one process.

I wasn't unaccepting of that process. I am unaccepting of the idea that someone can identify as a woman just by thinking of it, make no changes, but others must accept that decision.

Kim, I can only go on what I'm told. This thread is the first time I've ever read/seen/discussed transgendering other than a sex change documentary I watched one evening, which just touched on the other issues and was mainly about plastic surgery.

If I came across someone who had a penis is the women's changing room I'd either run out even if I was naked, have a screaming meltdown or find something heavy or sharp to hit him with. I can't tell you which one it would be because it hasn't happened since the time I got raped in a bathroom.

Whether you like it or not Kim, trans women have eroded women's rights. Trans women gaining specific rights means that women lose some of theirs. We've reached the point where men can come into women's changing rooms as long as they claim they identify as female and if we try to complain about it then we're being intolerant and hysterical. In some places men can compete against women in sports and take places on women's teams if they felt a bit feminine that morning. Not only stealing women's places but stealing funds that were earmarked for women which in the US makes a mockery of title IX (part of the 1964 civil rights act which ensures equal funding for male and female sports).

I'm all for equality but not when the hard fought for rights and safety of 50% of the population are being eroded for the sake of a tiny minority.

"But what does it mean to 'live your life as a woman', does that not just perpetuate gender stereotypes? How is it more than 'I feel like a woman'?
"

I hear you, Polter, but in that case, what do you gain in 'feeling like a woman' if there is actually no discernible difference between women and men?

I don't think it should be left up to trans women to have to resolve it. I think part of the poor reaction trans women get in these situations is down to the feeling that some kind of deception has been carried out.

The government should have made it very clear, when the law was changed, that same sex facilities had been abolished and replaced with same gender ones. Then people would no longer have an expectation that they were going to be naked next to a person of the same sex, and the feeling that a transgender person was doing something wrong would go.

People who are uncomfortable in same gender facilitieswould then have to request private facilities.