Question about gender change

[lougle]

If someone is making a transition to one gender from another, what does their sexuality relate to - their original gender, or their new one?

For instance, if a man is transitioning to become a woman, and is attracted to women, would that make them 'straight' or 'gay'?

If a woman is transitioning to become a man, and is attracted to women, would he then be 'straight' or 'gay'?

I'm likely to have to explain 'gender change' to my children, but it occurred to me that I really don't understand the 'gender' part of it at all.

I understand the physical processes and the medical timeline, etc. (ie. live as new gender for x period, medication, initial reassignment surgery, final reassignment surgery), but I don't understand how someone who has had gender reassignment would identify their sexuality.

I hope I haven't offended anyone - I may not have used the right terminology and may have been clumsy in the way I've asked the question.

You've read through this thread, and still think all the posts belittling sexual assault survivors and comparing them to silly schoolchildren are totes OK and within Mumsnet posting guidelines?

Okay then.

Nursey are you familiar with the concept of species dysphoria? Because people feel it, does that make it true?

It is important to understand the overall positions of everyone engaged in the issue.

Yes. That's what I found so educational about beanella's posts. The worst one got deleted even though the target asked MNHQ not to do it. Unless she changed her mind, I wonder why they did that and who they thought they were protecting.

Themselves, I guess. Fair enough, -isms and -phobias don't go down well with advertisers.

But neither do death threats. The police don't like them either and that one's is still there. So if you're having a retrospective tidy-up to spare some people's feelings, MNHQ, I'd get rid of that one too because I'd hate to think the site might get into trouble.

I don't so much care about beanella - stopping short of wishing serious illness or death on her, naturally. I wouldn't even tell her to get over herself, which is what she and others told PTSD sufferers or just those of us who don't want to see dicks in women's changing rooms.

As a counter to all the beanellas, Tiggys and suchlike who claim that the changing room issue is a red herring, I'd like to offer the case of Paris Green, a pre-op trans woman who is in prison for murder. She has a male body, but was placed in a woman's prison, and then had to be moved out to a more secure unit (still with other women) because she had sex with a number of other (women) prisoners.

We will never know, because of the nature of prison, how many of those encounters were fully consensual, and how many were not. I do know that if I was forced to share a cell with her, I'd have majorly freaked out because I cannot imagine having any other reaction to being forced to share such an intimate situation with any stranger with a penis, nevermind one who already has a proven history of extreme violence.

There's a link here (though I haven't been able to find one which doesn't discuss this case in pretty sensationalist language, and she is continually misgendered - but she's a brutal murderer, so I am perhaps of the mind that this isn't the most pertinent issue here): www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/pre-op-transsexual-killer-moved-out-2929284

Trans women under the law and prison guidelines in the UK, are placed in women's prisons.

There was a case last year of a trans woman in a woman's prison who caused so many problems, a group of woman arranged to rush the cell and attack this person so that the prison authorities would move them. And they did.

A better solution needs to be found. Remember MtoF in prison are criminals, and most cases I have read of, there is a history of sexual or violent offences. Women prisoners very rarely have a criminal history of violent or sexual offences. Offences such as shoplifting are more common histories.

I think when thinking about this issue people mistakenly think about the really nice trans woman they personally know. But that really nice person would not end up in prison.

Nursey, I was asking how you define the word 'woman'. So if you were to say 'trans*women are women', what does the word 'women' mean in that sentence?

Yes you can kim but I'm not sure that gets us any nearer a definition.

it seems really difficult to define exactly what a woman is

maybe it would be easiest to define us as not-men instead

what do posters think?

I am interested in how you would define a woman kim.

kim - I have spoken to a prison guard who said the default is that trans women are placed in womens prisons. If you got a MtoF Yorkshire Ripper, then I am sure something different would happen. But bar extreme cases, trans women go to women's prisons. I haven't come across one single case in the UK where that hasn't happened in more recent times.

chibi, the radfem viewpoint as I understand it is that it's not at all difficult to define 'woman' - adult human female was mentioned upthread, and I am assuming by that they do mean XX. It is clear though that some people are using a different definition of 'woman' and it seems to be very tricky for people to say exactly what they mean by that.

I would prefer it if we were not defined as not-men because it's insulting and 'othering' and also because we would then need to define 'men' so we wouldn't have got very far.

voilà we are not men.

my body makes eggs, i have a vagina, uterus, cervix, have menstruated,reproduced, will go through the menopause, have xx chromosomes but i am a woman because i am a not-man

so handy to have helpful norm to define everything in relation to.

I thought you had a biochemistry background Kim? Female is the default. In order to develop as male in the womb you must have the SRY gene which is on the Y chromosome. In addition to this, one X chromosome in each cell in female mammals is deactivated. Your post is biologically wrong on so many levels.

That's what it comes down to chibi isn't it, "not men".

If a person has a vagina, they are either female or intersex. If they have a penis, they are either male or intersex. Reproducing children is an indicator that someone is not intersex.

We are a sexually dimorphic species. It is a venn diagram of two groups with a tiny tiny overlap in the middle.

That's just sex though but it is real and being in the female circle has profound effects on how one lives one life and how one is treated by society (if, indeed, one gets to that point given the rates of abortions of babies just because they will be put into the female circle). The former is immutable although changes can be made to make the body appear to be of the other sex. It's the latter that needs to change though.

A woman is an adult human female, regardless of her sexual preference.

A man may have gender dysmorphia and feel like a woman, undergo castration procedures, take female hormones and force his body to become female in appearance, and "pass" for a woman. But he will not be a woman, since he is still a man with XY chromosomes in every cell, taking estrogen to look like a woman.

Having said that, I fully support transsexuals who want to change their bodies until they are happy with it, and will happily call anyone he, she, or it according to their wishes.

There are an increasing number of people detransitioning. I do think alternative treatments should be on offer for those who would benefit such as specialised counselling. Then hopefully we would not have anyone transitioning and realising they have made a mistake.