Question about gender change

[lougle]

If someone is making a transition to one gender from another, what does their sexuality relate to - their original gender, or their new one?

For instance, if a man is transitioning to become a woman, and is attracted to women, would that make them 'straight' or 'gay'?

If a woman is transitioning to become a man, and is attracted to women, would he then be 'straight' or 'gay'?

I'm likely to have to explain 'gender change' to my children, but it occurred to me that I really don't understand the 'gender' part of it at all.

I understand the physical processes and the medical timeline, etc. (ie. live as new gender for x period, medication, initial reassignment surgery, final reassignment surgery), but I don't understand how someone who has had gender reassignment would identify their sexuality.

I hope I haven't offended anyone - I may not have used the right terminology and may have been clumsy in the way I've asked the question.

It's simply a biological fact as is the fact that transmen are women.

This is a deeply deeply offensive comment.

You know nothing.

Nothing about the hormones in a transmans body. Nothing about what is is a transmans body. There is nothing female left after surgery and treatment. There are just scars, lots of scars and hormones. Testosterone.

Do you honestly think ANY individual would put themselves through the living hell, pain, trauma, both physical and psychological trauma so that YOU YOU IGNORANT TRANSPHOBIC BIGOT, can wipe out all of that with one ill informed statement?

Because that is what happens to a transperson every time someone makes a comment like that. You eradicate their person,

You and many people like you, can destroy someone with a statement like that. Everytime those statements are made, a transperson has to recover from that.

You know NOTHING. You know NOTHING,,

That is why the LAW is in place to protect people from discrimination. The Gender recognition certificate protect transpeople from this kind of bigotry and acknowledges their femalesness or malesness.

You have know fucking idea.

Shame on you. You are know better that a racist or a homophobe.

You know what the sad thing is? My husband has to sit next to people who might like you in his office, on the bus, at restaurants, people like you who treat people with less that the respect they deserve need to be humbled, I feels sorry for you. I feel sorry for anyone who could treat another human with so little respect and dignity.

Kim I don't think these people will ever open up or treat trans people with the respect and dignity they deserve. Is disgusts me.

kim you asked what people think caused transsexualism. It's hardly controversial to state that it's a psychiatric condition given that psychiatrists say it is and you have talked about your gender psychiatrist. You may not agree (and lots of people don't) but it is you who is being disingenuous in your response to when.

Flora People have to see psychiatrists to check whether they are GENUINE transsexuals who need treatment as opposed to a bit mixed up or playing around.

That is why they see psychiatrists. The Psychiatrist also does lots and lots of work with them around the implications of surgical interventions etc. This is part of the process of determining whether someone is mixed up or a genuine transexual person.

There is some evidence of a biological basis of transexualism. I have posted earlier about this. The problem is is a that you don't want to give it any credit because you are

TRANSPHOBIC

There are laws. Because you don't like Transexuals and don't believe they have the rights that they been granted BY LAW.

It doesnt mean that you are right.

Thank god for European Law, for progress.

bean there are chromosomes and naturally produced hormones. The testosterone is artificial.

The law recognises a trans person's dysphoria, not their maleness or femaleness.

bean wasn't it you up thread telling a woman with PTSD that she had to get over it so as not to offend someone with a penis in her changing room? I found that deeply deeply offensive.

I know how brains develop and I'm just open to the possibility of hormone effects, gene effects, epigenetics and stuff going on in the brain that we have no idea about at all. We know hardly anything about the brain and its real power. I doubt we ever will

Kim, have you seen the findings about the hypothalmus in the Transexual brain? interesting stuff. I think fairly recent too. The last 5-10 years perhaps?

The law recognises a trans person's dysphoria, not their maleness or femaleness

Says who?

The word "transphobic" has lost any power it once had. I am unmoved by your insults.

I set out upthread how I thought the law should treat trans people and you agreed with what I said, at least the part that a trans person should have surgery and hormones if they are to be treated as the opposite sex.

The law says that beanella, it's easy to find with google.

naturally produced hormones

Which have all gone through hormone blockers and then the removal of the organs that produce those hormones.

If you choose not to recognize Transmen or Women as 'Men or Women' That is fine for you to feel that way.

The law and plenty of (decent, respectful) human beings are perfectly accepting of transexual people and respect their rights, and their identities.

I think your efforts will never pursuade me, tibbysmum, kim, and lots and lots of other people who have tran families and friends, are trans, have trans teachers (as someone upthread did) that people who have undergone gender reassignment are not the male/female that they identify as and are recognized as by law.

beanella there are people, possibly including tibbysmum, who would call you transphobic for your posts stating that trans people have to go through reassignment surgery or hormone treatment in order to be recognised as the opposite sex. They would say you are a transphobe for not accepting their stated identity as their sex because you do not believe a penis can be a female organ.

Yes, you are absolutely right, I am a bit transphobic actually. I AM MIGHTILY FUCKED OFF with 'transmen' wanting gender recognition then stopping hormones to get pregnant, of not wanting hormones or surgery, of going for private surgery after being turned down for it because they don't have gender dysphoria they are deviant and want to set
up bloody support groups exploiting young vulnerable people into deviant sexual practices. YES IM FUCKING TRANSPHOBIC THEN.

Why the fuck should my DH have to confront these people and deal with that dysphoria when all he wants to do is get some advice about hormone treatment. Why the fuck should he have to wait 6 months without the hormones he needs because private health providers are buying limited stocks from producers and SELLING them to people that don't have gender dysphoria and are therefore NOT genuine transexuals.

This is because my poor dear husband has fought for bloody years to get to where he has and has been abused, locked up, spat at in the street, excluded, sacked from jobs, denied his basic human rights to be THE MAN that he needed to be.

His gender dysphoria started by the age of 5. He was thought to be a boy since he was a child. We have photos of him looking like a boy. He was locked at a psychiatric hospital when he hit puberty because he just couldnt handle what was happening to his body and thought intensive working out and starvation would stop it. He hid in his house.

He has had 20 years of recognition of his maleness. Is scared all over his body from breast removal, has risked bone degeneration, cancers, blood disorders to make his body the way it should be and YOU are happy to make a statement like this.

It's simply a biological fact as is the fact that transmen are women

Shame on you. Really.

I have belittled no one.

This debate, as far as i am concerned has been about equality for transexual people and their right to have their identities respected.

I acknowledge that this might be difficult for some people to cope with for whatever reason but the has been an almost blanket hysteria from some corners about the changing room issue and other elements of this debate have been downright offensive.

All I have done is presented a case for respecting the rights of individuals.

I dont give a shiny shit of people are radical feminists, transgender individuals, sufferers of PTSD. There HAS to be some emerging discourse that allows for everyone to be respected and participate in public life.

As long as there are people spouting statements like this:

It's simply a biological fact as is the fact that transmen are women

and wanting an outright ban on transexual women from changing rooms, there will never be equality, people will not be able to go about their lives being afforded respect and dignity.

A straight forward solution to the changing room issue would be that every public bath/pool provide indiviual private cubicles for people who feel uncomfortable in communal spaces. Whether they are PTSD sufferers, Transexual people, people with religious needs, or women with reall small tits (like me) who have felt uncomfortable and shy.

But this would not be seen as as satisfactory solution as there will still be some people who want to deny the intrinsic identity of some people. Thank god for the law as I know catagorically that the suicide rate would be even higher than it already is.

beanella no-one on this thread has said that post-op transwomen should be banned from changing rooms. The discussion was of pre-op or non-op - penises - in changing rooms. You have already said you don't think pre/non-op trans people should be treated as members of the opposite sex. Your view is actually the same as the hated "bigot" Cathy Brennan who co-wrote a letter proposing that there should be some objective criteria for trans people being treated as members of the opposite sex, such as surgery and hormones and that simply stating oneself to be a man or a woman is not enough. You agree with this.

You have belittled PTSD sufferers. For someone who wants others to tread on eggshells and not discuss biological reality to preserve your husband's feelings, you might want to be more sensitive to the feelings of others.

You live even a potion of a life of a transperson then come back and say what you have to say. Not one single person who has denied the Transpersons Identity will have any real life experience of the issue. Not one.

Yes, I admitted I have some anti trans attitudes. I am not proud of that, though the life i have lived and the life I have experienced with DH has made me really angry.

Its so easy to depersonalize it's so easy to make all kinds of judgements and place labels and theories and academics but what it does to people is damage.

The views expressed by rad fems on these threads DO DAMAGE.

I proposed, and how i reconcile my own understanding of the issue is by separating 'Transsexual' from 'Transgender'

There is of course a grey area while people are undergoing psychological assessment pre-hormone and pre other treatment but we would hope that any transsexual person would be making a journey towards full participation (obviously sadly fertility will never be resolved) in public life of a citizen of their gender.

So I ask you to perhaps consider the transexual and transgender person differently and also be resolved that that, in some circumstances may never be apparent to you us indeed be any of our business.

I ask you to consider the hypothalmus studies, the studies around genetics. I ask you to open your mind to the possibility that Transexualism IS a biological condition.

I will certainly re read my posts and will recognise where my anger and sarcasm may have caused offence and the strength of feeling expressed may be have appeared to be hectoring.

I dont want to be little women with PTSD, this thread isn't about them, it's about Transexual people and their rights and participation.

I will stand up for that and make no apologies for it.

Have a good day.

Florafox~ The BIOLOGICAL REALITY. Ater what I've written about scars, hormones, trauma, years of abuse health risks, YOU STLL uphold that the biological reality is that my DH is a women? There is NOTHING left that makes him female, don't you understand that?

Really? Truly?

given the tremendous rates of violence against women, i should think there are far far more of us with PTSD walking around than there are trans people, of any gender.

do we have a right to participation, too?

In my most angry and upset moments I dream of eradicating people like you from the planet. You dont know me, you dont know who I am, you dont know my husband you dont know kim. YOU have shown know recognition for the suffering of individuals and showed no compassion to tras people whatsoever. Once again, have a shit day.

do we have a right to participation, too? hmm

as I said, There HAS to be some emerging discourse that allows for everyone to be respected and participate in public life

there wont be aS LOng as people like florafox spout things like this:

It's simply a biological fact as is the fact that transmen are women

Rad fems don't do any where near the damage men do

well discrediting transwomen and stopping them from exercising their rights wont solve that.

what an incredibly short road it seems to be from 'transwomen are women' to 'i hope your tits rot and vagina falls out' '

wow. that was some intense misogyny, and quite telling that you went for that instead of just a simple 'fuck off'

if this were about me,i would ask posters not to report, just so they can see what some trans advocates really think.

you are a horrible person but i don't need to wish ill on you, it would seem your own life has done that already