Question about gender change

[lougle]

If someone is making a transition to one gender from another, what does their sexuality relate to - their original gender, or their new one?

For instance, if a man is transitioning to become a woman, and is attracted to women, would that make them 'straight' or 'gay'?

If a woman is transitioning to become a man, and is attracted to women, would he then be 'straight' or 'gay'?

I'm likely to have to explain 'gender change' to my children, but it occurred to me that I really don't understand the 'gender' part of it at all.

I understand the physical processes and the medical timeline, etc. (ie. live as new gender for x period, medication, initial reassignment surgery, final reassignment surgery), but I don't understand how someone who has had gender reassignment would identify their sexuality.

I hope I haven't offended anyone - I may not have used the right terminology and may have been clumsy in the way I've asked the question.

Kim - you may not be aware of just how many women suffer with self-hate and body dysphoria (not connected to being trans in any way, but mostly, I suspect, being taught from birth that you are never, ever good enough to satisfy what a woman is "supposed" to look like). It's hardly unique to the trans community. If anything, I'm amazed and delighted whenever I come across a woman who doesn't hate her own body, or do anything stronger than tolerate it.

And - I don't know anyone who thinks Julie Burchill speaks sense on anything, ever, so I don't know what the point of bringing her in here is. (And again, really vicious abuse directed at women by well-paid columnists is hardly an unusual thing.)

levianne you are right, of course. Many women are suffering from self-hate and dysmorphia. The answer is to accept these women (or men) as they are and not to ask these men or women to pretend to be the other sex as a precondition of acceptance.

I agree with what you said WhentheRed.

I also feel uncomfortable with breast reduction surgery, because I think it is as much imposing an ideal on normal body shapes as the pressure to augment naturally small breasts.

I'm treading very carefully here, because as a woman who doesn't have very large breasts, I have never experienced the physical discomfort that those women who do describe - back pain, sweat rashes for instance. I believe that those women who complain about that are telling the truth.

However I am disturbed by the number of women who opt for reduction who state those reasons but also add that they want it because people, mostly men, stare at them and make unpleasant comments and judgements.

I say mostly men but I've heard women do it too - describing someone with big tits as brainless, sexually loose, provocative etc - like as if you can disguise your big tits. They're on the front of your body. Just like your big nose isn't a personal or political statement - it's just big and on the front of your face.

For me, that's the flip side of the coin where small-breasted women talk about their reasons for augmentation being to be 'in proportion' which is a very common description.

My view is if you want to have a procedure to alter your appearance, you have every right to go ahead.

I've done it and it's not any business of anyone else unless you are hurting anyone or perpetuating damaging stereotypes - and that's where the rub is.

I'm willing to discuss my reasons for having botox, fillers, face-threading, tooth-bleaching, going to the gym, dyeing my hair, wearing make up, having sunbeds

I find the biological argument for trans rather than the social one to be false.

But that's my view. Ultimately I would like people to be honest about their reasons for doing what they want to do and refrain from shutting down debate.

I am sorry if you are upset Kim, but as Flora said this is a discourse and not all things said (written) will be comfortable to hear.

You are right to say that as I am not trans I cannot understand how you feel, but how is it when I say to you that you cannot understand how I feel as a woman that is wrong? I absolutely recognise the legal position in this country, I hope I can empathise with your need to be recognised for you feel you are, but (whilst I don't agree with everything she says) I do feel that Shelia Jefffreys raises some points that resonate for me.

kim you may say it is ridiculous to say you feel like a woman but this is a very common trans narrative. If you are saying you think there is no such thing as feeling like a woman, do you think these transwomen who say this are lying or deluded?

kim147 Thirty years ago I had a conventionally very attractive look.

I didn't need to do much to my body to conform and to be attractive to men - just shaving my legs and armpits, and wearing dresses and a bit of make up and having longish hair.

I didn't feel the need to go to the gym or go in for pubic topiary. Therefore I didn't realise I was conforming and contorting, though, in fact, I was.

As I've grown older the need to conform has changed - I've grown hairier and saggier and so the expectation of grooming and maintenance for me has increased if I am to be acceptable.

But more importantly a woman of 20 these days would feel under much more pressure than I did at 20 to alter her appearance and that makes me very angry.

What I've learned over 30 years is that it's not a need. It's a want.

And it's a trap.

I have no interest in bearing a child, even though I am socially and biologically (as far as I am aware) a woman. Some people will judge me as less of a woman for never having been a mother. (Some people will wonder why I am on mumsnet).

I am grateful to feminists for fighting for a society where I didn't have to have a child that I didn't want in order to somehow be validated as a woman.

Perhaps we are in another period of change where what it means to be a woman will be redefined.

I read a story in the news this week that vaginas had been grown from stem cells for four women born without vaginas. Their congenital lack of a vagina hadn't stopped them being raised and identifing as women.

It's an issue I find confusing. Thankyou, kim, for your patient and tolerant posts.

Whenthered Can you reference that please??