To think nursery age children don't need to be "school ready"

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Beyond being toilet trained, able to put on shoes/coats and recognising very simple numbers and shapes.
Head of OFSTED says that nurseries and childminders are failing children as they are not getting them school ready. he thinks there should be more structured learning for 2 and 3 year olds.
I am a childminder and see my role at that age is to ensure children can sit attentively for a few minutes, can use a knife and fork etc.
As it happens, I do also make sure I do lots of reading/ number games/ colour recognition etc. but I disagree that this should be in a structured environment as he suggests.
He says the good nurseries are those attached to schools, dismissing the thousands of excellent nurseries and childminders around the country.
I think that children already start school very young and if they only start to learn simple arithmetic at 4 yo, then so be it.
2 and 3 yos should be learning through play, the word structured fills me with dread in relation to what are essentially toddlers.

If you want children from poorer backgrounds to do better, shouldn't you get rid of poverty?

excusetypos perhaps I should repost that post from time to time, to remind people joining it that:

He actually said school ready was things like being able to go to the toilet, doing up shoes, being able to listen for a while, knowing some colours/numbers, how to hold a pencil/crayon etc.

And absolutely nothing to do with the introduction of 'formal learning'

My dd's maternelle used to follow themes. For example Wheat. So they went to a farm. They went to a windmill. They played with flour. They drew pictures. They baked bread. They talked about the seasons. They brought in baked goods from different countries (quite a mix at dd's school) etc etc. They did similar with Weather and Insects and stuff. This is what school consists of here between 3 and 6. No tests, no uniforms, no pressure. Teacher led activities, yes, but lots of fun.

But as I said above, when they started Primary, the WHOLE class was ready. The differences between the eldest and the youngest and the boys and the girls had pretty much disappeared. They could all sit still, they could all use a pen, they could all go to the toilet. The teacher could get on with the business of teaching them to read and write.

My friend has a dd the same age as mine. She started "formal" education 2 years earlier than dd. It was disconcerting hearing how good she was a reading. Nowadays there is no difference between them at all. In fact dd can read fluently in 2 languages. So 2 years of work extra to get to the same end result.

I think that saying that the children who are not school ready come from a socially deprived back ground or don't go to the right sort of nursery or have parents not willing or able to put in the time and effort are missing the point.

Df is very very wealthy and her ds an only child, went to the best nursery in our neighbourhood, (very upper middle class area) and he was only just "school ready" and he is a September born child.
My ds was "school ready" just, despite being a summer born baby. He could read a few words, write his name and do simple sums.
By the end of year 3 he had gone backwards. He could not read, write, and scored an impressive 0 on his end of year Maths test. The homework, which he had to do as it was the national curriculum and every child had to do it (so his teachers said) was taking up so much time and leaving us all exhausted and emotionally drained that there never seemed to be enough time or enough energy to try and help him with stuff he needed to learn to do.

If he did not complete the homework as in a few times it was beyond him, he was shouted at in the front of the class. From a very happy, bright little boy he became a depressed shell. The best decision we made was to home school him but even now we have not got back that person who he was. He will still wake in the middle of the night after having a nightmare about the school he left 4 years before and we still have problems that are ongoing because of the teaching methods and general behaviour towards him. I really hope things will get better and I will get back my bright, sunny little boy but as the years role on I doubt we will ever come to terms with what happened at school.

During his first Parent teachers meeting it was pointed out to me that my 4year 1 month old could not write a paragraph. I was then shown a fellow classmates work (fellow classmate was a girl who had just turned 5) and was told my ds was failing. When I asked what they were going to do about it I was told that they were there to teach and if a pupil could not or would not learn then that was not their problem. This was ds's first school which only went up to year 2. He went to another school in year 3 which had the same way of doing things which meant he was going backwards not forwards. I tried to help him and for a while things were looking better but as the homework increased then the stuff I could do with him decreased.

What is trying to be achieved and how nurseries and school teachers will interpret it is open to a wide range of varying ideas of what it means.

He hasn't said anything about assessing very young children for potential SEN issues, and funding statements at nursery. I raise this because hidden SEN is thought by researchers to be a factor underpinning some of the 'school readiness' issues.

Gosh that sounds an awful school. Was it private? Shouting at a child is very wrong.

I think you have to consider the demographics. Study after study has shown that one of the best indicators of a child's academic and career outcomes is education level of the Mother. We are on Mumsnet. Posting about Education. Lets face it, posters on here are likely (more likely than average) to be well educated themselves and/or very interested in their child's well-being and helping to maximize their potentials. Our children, on the whole, are going to be fine one way or the other, whatever Ofsted etc mandate. Any SEN will be addressed, our 2/3y olds will gradually be shown how to go to the toilet, how to hold a pen and a knife and fork. They will get regular and appropriate medical care. Reasonably good diets.

However, it is blindingly obvious to me - and I have nothing to do with Childcare or Education other than as a parent - that there are vast swathes of the population where this Does Not Happen. Government departments have to cater for the entire population. As a middle class parent I find it annoying that my childminder has to do meaningless paperwork (to me) yes, but what's the alternative I suppose? That the people in care or with crappy parents are written off - the people like the previous poster's husband grow up convinced they are "fick".

I think I can cope with a little bit more structure if they can demonstrate positive outcomes for children that aren't as lucky as mine. I do think they do need to start demonstrating it though - look at Surestart - pretty much written off as a failure now.

My children are lucky. I send/sent my children to a good quality (expensive) day nursery, a good nursery/pre-school attached to a school and also use a lovely childminder who does the things like baking and park trips during the week which I can't do while I'm at work. And if I really don't like the generic catch-all structures put in place by Ofsted I can opt out and send them to independent schools. I am educated and can help them with their homework and I can provide a comfortable house for them to live in, a good diet and a range of experiences like holidays and days out. I really don't think this applies to all children in the U.K.

He hasn't said anything about assessing very young children for potential SEN issues, and funding statements at nursery. I raise this because hidden SEN is thought by researchers to be a factor underpinning some of the 'school readiness' issues.

I wondered about this as all the DC I know who had problems in reception were later found to have underlying medical conditions or diagnosed with some form of SEN.

Plus aren't SEN levels higher in lower social economic groups?

I wonder how much of that is possibly due to family histories of such conditions and corresponding poor education outcomes being passed down, or SEN conditions having more impact on education due to fewer family resources to mitigate their impact or just poorer nutrition at key development times.

guinea
what an odd post!
What part of my OP makes you think nurseries are better than CMs??

I said: "As it happens, I do also make sure I do lots of reading/ number games/ colour recognition etc. but I disagree that this should be in a structured environment as he suggests"

does that offend you somehow?/

I am delighted that there are so many intelligent, excellent child minders and nursery nurses out there(ie think as I do.) In my experience, nurseries attached to schools get lots of directives from Reception Class as to what the children should be doing, as opposed to what is necessary for their development, just as the secondary school would send envoys to ensure lists of their targets were covered. I thought Michael Willshaw was going to be good when he was first appointed, but he seems to be increasingly hysterical in his approach to education for all ages. I agree, look to the continent for pre-school and nursery education; structured but not pressured.

Goodness. No these were both outstanding OFSTED rated state schools.

I returned him to a school in year 6 that OFSTED thought was not great which was the most fantastic school he had ever been to and wishes he had been there all along. They told me that he is very dyslexic and needs to be properly tested. He started senior school and in the first week the 180 new year 7 pupils sat down to a Maths test so they could be grouped in order of ability. He scored 98% and came 2nd behind a fellow classmate. In fact out of the 7 pupils who had transferred from the primary school where he had spent the previous year to this particular school they took the top 7 places in the Maths test.

So much for OFSTED reports.

Surely the sensible solution would be to not make small children go to school?

My ds has just started nursery in Sweden, for the last 2 weeks I have been going with him to help him settle in, it has been such an eye opening experience to see how they "teach" the children and what is expected of the children.

Ds is in a group where the age range is 1-4 years, the older group has an age range of 4-7.

In many ways they children are treated the same as adults, the food they eat is the same that adults would eat, no bland kids food. Ds had broccoli soup with crusty bread today, yeasterday he had quinoa and roasted veg with cheese. They are given china plates and real glasses, they have candles lit in the middle of the table to make it feel cosy. In contrast to this the children all get help getting dressed/undressed to go outside and they nap/rest after lunch.

there is no formal teaching as such, they make pictures with crayons but there is no pen holding training and not a hint of letter forming even with the older kids. The children are trusted with tools, they do woodwork and needle work.

The children spend more than half of the day outside regardless of weather, they are just allowed to play.

The 2, 3 and 4 year olds know the names of all the birds who come and sit in the trees whilst they eat their snack, they know which birds migrate and which birds mate for life. The 4 other kids in my ds's group each seem to have a personal passion that they talk about lots, one girl is obsessed with owls, she knows everything there is to know about owls, one boy is very interested in languages, he insists on saying bye bye to ds in a different language each day, one boy is interested in fashion, he likes to wear dresses and he matches his slippers to his outfit (he has special pink sparkly slippers for when he is wearing a dress because you must wear fancy slippers when wearing a dress).

The children are so kind to each other, they see themselves as a little family. they call my ds "our new baby" and they are so excited when he comes in the morning.

The older kids go on adventures around the nature reserve that the nursery is located in every friday, they build a fire and cook their lunch on it and then make dens and chase leaves and spot animals.They spend their days ice skating and sledging in the winter and making dens/doing plays/ growing flowers and veg in the summer.

The teachers are so kind and affectionate with the children, they cuddle them and kiss them, stroke their hair and touch their faces.

Part of the preschool curriculum in Sweden is that the child has the right to decide for themself, the children are encoraged to make their own decisions and if there is some silly behaviour it is ignored unless it is hurting someone or dangerous.

I saw the older kids enjoying their friday afternoon bonfire last week, it was one of those glorious early spring days, warm sunshine, clear blue sky, lots of wind. The leaves were newly defrosted and blowing all over the place, some of the kids were leaping up in the air collecting them and taking them into the dens they had built to make beds for themselves as they were bears just waking up from hibination, some of the kids were spotting spring flowers, a couple of the kids were sat on their teacher's knee having a cuddle the kids looked so happy and uninhibited. it crossed my mind that non of these kids could read or write, they have never sat in a classroom enviroment, in the UK all of those children would be in classroom bassed education every day, the older kids would have been in school for 3 years already.

I don't understand what the rush is to get children who are not much more than toddlers "school ready." Surely the focus should be on ensuring that children feel secure, happy, loved and respected, everything else will come naturally with an engaged and commited carer.

I started reception at 4 and 2 weeks, little things like I was too little to sit properly on the big chair and I weed in my pants because I didn't know how to undo dungarees and I wasn't allowed to sit on my teacher's knee even if I was upset or feeling ill made school a not very nice place to go.

Sweden does better educationally that the UK and more importantly studies have shown that Swedish kids are happier.

It's insane. Ofsted will no doubt be inspecting parents soon to ensure they're providing a structured learning environment.

bangs head against wall

My children are lucky. I send/sent my children to a good quality (expensive) day nursery, a good nursery/pre-school attached to a school and also use a lovely childminder who does the things like baking and park trips during the week which I can't do while I'm at work. And if I really don't like the generic catch-all structures put in place by Ofsted I can opt out and send them to independent schools. I am educated and can help them with their homework and I can provide a comfortable house for them to live in, a good diet and a range of experiences like holidays and days out.

But what happens if you do all of that and your children are still not able to read by the end of year 1.

The answer is nothing. nothing happens and your child is left to spend 6 hours per day floundering in a sea of literate people where they are effectively written off by the very people who are paid to look out for them and teach them. The homework that is set is designed to have them fail and feel like failures.

I have also come to the conclusion over the few years I have had to look at OFSTED reports that it is not necessarily the schools and the teachers that are outstanding but the tutors that are employed by the parents of children at the school

rallytog1 let me help you with that.

Isn't 'readying for school' what Year R is for? I sort of thought the clue was in the name, 'Reception', like, come here before you go in properly and we'll point you in the right direction.

I am happy to be advised otherwise though.

I think Michael Wilshaw is doing precisely what his predecessor did to childminders in Autumn 2012.
Then, childminders were attacked for their track record on "school readiness" (just one month after the requirement was introduced and all providers were still squabbling over exactly what it meant!) and it started a series of attacks on childminders so that Liz Truss could introduce her Agencies.

Now, Michael Wilshaw is paving the way for the Government's policy to move daycare and nursery provision into schools by rubbishing the current providers. It's been going on for some time and the real reason for all this is the drive for cheap childcare - cheap for the Government, that is.

Why else would they be ignoring years of research into how young children learn and develop? Why else would they ignore the Early Years experts, the professionals, those who work with these children; those who influence our thinking and best practice and those who work with it daily?

In my opinion, Michael Wilshaw has proved two things:

1. He knows NOTHING about Early Years and how young children learn.

1. He's politically influenced to the point where he and his organisation can no longer be relied upon to deliver independent and unbiased opinion.

I wish we could remove ALL Early Years from Ofsted control. Inspection after inspection is proving they have poor knowledge of the sector and children deserve an inspecting body that knows what it's talking about.

ikea - I think the interviewer on the Today program this morning asked Wilshaw something similar wrt. Sweden and I managed not to hear his answer as DS2 had flicked Weetabix on the dog (by accident and dog ecstatically happy).

well I guess that's the answer isn't it Annie - if I did all that and my child still couldn't read at the end of y1 I would: read with them even more often, speak to the teacher, nag the HT, get professional help, hire a tutor, see an educational psychologist, visit the GP, check hearing and vision, see private doctors if necessary, move schools if I felt it would help, assess for SEN. I would do whatever I could to try and improve the situation. I wouldn't just leave them to get further and further behind, but that's what happens to a lot of kids I think.

I think a 4 year old should be toilet trained, able to hold a pen and put his coat on - what's that got to do with poverty? - people on low incomes have toilets.

I have a huge problem with this:

Sir Michael added: "The corollary of not preparing children well for school is that they don't do well in reception and, if they don't do well in reception, they don't get on at key stage one, they find it difficult to read at seven, they fail at the end of primary school and that failure continues into secondary school.

My ds did not do well in reception. He went unable to hold a pen properly, use a knife and fork or write something resembling his name. He did not learn to read and write until Y1. This had absolutely nothing to do with my failings as a parent or the failings of his preschool (which was one of these wonderful ones attached to a school!). It had everything to do with the fact that he was a premature August born boy with poor fine motor skills who was categorically not ready for school.

He did well in KS1 and reads brilliantly at 7, thanks to a wonderful reception class who let him go at his own pace, great teachers and interested and supportive parents. I object strongly to my lovely ds and all those other children like him being lumped into this generic and badly thought through statement.

I wonder how much of that is possibly due to family histories of such conditions and corresponding poor education outcomes being passed down, or SEN conditions having more impact on education due to fewer family resources to mitigate their impact or just poorer nutrition at key development times.

I think this is a very controversial line of thought. The hereditary element suggests a certain predisposition and following on from this a certain pre-destination, concerning outcome. This is why some people 'write children off', it seems from an increasingly young age. However I think it important to recognize the plasticity of brain development and sheer range of diversity in a child's development.

Equally poor nutrition might be a factor but again it might not be.

The factor that seem so readily missed is how teacher beliefs and expectations concerning the educational potential of a child and how this can affect the quality of teaching and assessment. Low aspirations of professionals involved in educating our children, are especially pertinent when 'Early Intervention' policies are adopted, children can indeed be 'written off' from a very young age and sidelined into corridors, away from the classroom, working with TAs and 'forgotten about' by the teachers.

I wouldn't say this happens all the time but I have certainly experienced some of it, through my child being given a Statement of SEN. At various times it has been apparent to me that the CT has not been aware of (some written) comments TAs made concerning my DC's learning to me or attending different learning groups in school was preventing the work in class from being completed satisfactorily. Equally I have found out (from my child), he has not undergone the same teacher assessment process other children in the class have undergone (though not actually disclosed by CT). Later when he did, the results showed a huge jump in 'attainment'.

ikeaismylocal sounds idyllic.

capsium I wasn't trying to be controversial but I do think there is more than the usual bad parenting that is so often blamed going on and was trying to express that.

I'm dyslexic as are many of my family. It has a genetic component - it's not whole story or fully understood - does mean my DC are higher risk than general in being diagnosed with this and may well have problems, and have, within schooling system.

In my case means I do extra phonics with them and look at many other ways of supporting them.

Higher numbers of dyslexics are found in the prison population than general population. Doesn't mean all dyslexia will end up in prison or won't do well educationally it's just something that else that needs to be overcome and not doing so has life chance implications.

The fact that support and understanding is more wide spread in schools now than when I was at school can only help this.

Low aspirations of professionals involved in educating our children

Oh yes I so agree with this. We are in a working class area often bad with low boys expectations from teachers and parents.

I've got very frustrated when it kept being given as a reason my DS was behind in certain areas. I accept generally boys may be behind girls development but that not a reason not to look at what is causing the problems or not to help individual boys to get past problems.

Lots of parental input and advice from primary school boards here and he's now in top sets and doing well. If I'd listened and just accepted it - I seriously doubt he'd be doing so well.

Forago they will not test for dyslexia at anything below age 8 and even then it is a wait and see policy. My dd is dyslexic and she only had her diagnosis in year 9 aged 14 and yet everyone of her teachers from Reception upwards had said they thought she was dyslexic. Ds is IMO much worse and no amount of reading each night and going through the earliest reader books helped. Ds got further and further behind because of the directive saying all children should be able to read by the time they enter yr 2 and should be doing X,Y and Z for homework. It is as if saying it will make it happen.

The look on ds's teacher's face was completely blank when I pointed out that the homework set was beyond him and could she set something for him that was achievable. It was like a mantra, "that is the homework, we are following the national curriculum and there are no exceptions. That is the homework he has to do it otherwise he will sit in all break and all lunch times until it has been achieved"

You can only get a child tested for dyslexia through an educational psychologist if the school recommend it. And most schools I have come across just take a wait and see policy. Apart from dd's private senior school.
What happens if the teacher, HT and everyone who could give you the help and referral needed will not. What happens if they remove the SENCO dept from the school and don't tell you?

Having got one at private and one at state I can say all your recommendations are laudable if you are dealing with a school you are paying for. State schools I always get the impression from some of them that you should be grateful your child is able to come to their fantastic school.

Yes we did move schools, dd and ds both been to 4 schools and apart from an OFSTED failing school and a private one the OFSTED outstanding ones were at best unhelpful and at worse downright atrocious. Would you like your child to be the subject of discussions between his teacher/fellow parent (her ds was a fellow pupil) and other parents in his class about how badly ds was falling behind. When I made the decision to home ed him a df told me her ds had said that the teacher had made a comment in class how ds was not going to be coming to school any more as he was going to be playing computer games all day.

Not all teachers want the best for your child and no amount of head banging helps.

The more I see of how education is run in this country the more I think it is designed for girls. Those with both dd's and ds's must see the difference between a boy of 4 and a girl of 4. Especially if the boy is the younger sibling.