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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Not to want to castrate my new dog?

179 replies

Nataleejah · 02/04/2014 17:26

He's 7yo, very well behaved, never agressive, very obedient. Previous owner did not neuter him, so why should i? Even though people in the park tell me off...

OP posts:
AdoraBell · 02/04/2014 20:35

We also had an entire dog try To Get To one our bitches, and she wasn't entire. He Spent 9 hours, I kept going back To my kitchen window To see if He'd given up yet, squeezing between the bottom of a metal gate and the paved drive. By the time he got under he was bruised and cut all over. I removed him and he squeezed under again, spending all night struggling this time. I decided it was better To let him stay as my bitch was nuetered and so Risk of puppies. The vet agreed that a dog that intent wasn't likey To Go away.

Some dogs are determined and if they can Get To a bitch they will, even if she's on a lead and being walked by a responsable owner.

Does Anyone know How many strays there are in the UK? Just out of curiosity.

AdoraBell · 02/04/2014 20:42

Methe interesting that you think the onus for not producing unwanted puppies is on the owners of females. So if my two males escaped and impregnated a couple of females, either owned or stray, before they were nuetered that's not my responsability. Is that right?

toboldlygo · 02/04/2014 20:43

How do you define 'stray'? I would say there are almost no dogs living on the streets but the number in rescue centres and council pounds is shocking. Last figures I saw were that 10,000 unwanted dogs were euthanised every year in the UK.

Methe · 02/04/2014 20:44

Your responsibility lays with not allowing your dog to escape.

AdoraBell · 02/04/2014 20:48

A dog that doesn't have a home/owner.

The council pounds pick up strays don't they? As opposed To people taking the dogs there when they can't cope. So really the dogs in council pounds are stray dogs. I'm just Curios as To How big a problem it is in the UK. Obviously can't compare it To where I live now.

AdoraBell · 02/04/2014 20:50

But if they did? Or if they were being excised off lead?

LtEveDallas · 02/04/2014 21:11

Methe, and if the owner of the bitch cannot spay for medical reasons (like my friend above), who is the onus on then?

Bowlersarm · 02/04/2014 21:23

I think the onus is on the dog owner to keep their dog secure.

It is the onus of the bitch on heat owner to keep their bitch secure; and not walked where other dogs are walked for the period of time she's fertile.

Jolleigh · 02/04/2014 21:26

Why precisely is the onus on the owner of the bitch alone? That makes no sense whatsoever. Especially considering there will always be dogs raised for breeding and dogs who can't be fixed for medical reasons.

Bowlersarm · 02/04/2014 21:29

Is that to me, Jolleigh? i havent said the onus is on the bitch owner alone.

But, if you own the bitch, and you can't keep her secure when she's in season, then the best thing to do, is have her speyed. She's your responsibility.

Jolleigh · 02/04/2014 21:31

Sorry Bowler, it was to Methe

Methe · 02/04/2014 21:38

Because the bitch has the puppies and the owner of the bitch has to house them and home them.

LtEveDallas · 02/04/2014 21:45

Methe, and if the owner of the bitch cannot spay for medical reasons (like my friend above), who is the onus on then?

moosemama · 02/04/2014 21:47

WelshMaenad

"But moosemana, where do all the teenage dogs in rescue come from? They're those unplanned puppies, rehomed free on Gumtree to clueless fuckwits, and grown up a bit."

Some of them may be, as I said, I don't dispute that unplanned litters can occur as a result of a dog's determination to 'get at' a bitch in season, but the vast majority will be from back-yard-breeders and puppy farms, having been sold to unsuitable/irresponsible owners. Most of those pups will have been sold through Gumtree etc.

Of course the clueless fuckwits are the very same people who go on to do things like allowing their dogs to roam free, keeping unneutered males in the same house as unspayed bitches etc and either have absolutely no idea what they are doing or simply don't care and so the cycle continues - irresponsible dog owners, as I said in my earlier post.

moosemama · 02/04/2014 21:53

I would say the responsibility lies with owners of both bitches and dogs to ensure that their own dogs are kept under control.

If, like my dog and your friend's bitch they cannot be neutered for medical reasons then it's just a fact of life that we have to try even harder to ensure we are responsible for the security of our own dogs/bitches.

It does make sense to be very careful with bitches that are in season, whether that is when/where you walk them or ensuring your property is secure, because even if all 'pet' owners neuter, there will always be entire male dogs owned by breeders and as working stud dogs they are more likely to be keen to get to her. Therefore going on what others have reported on this thread, an unplanned litter is always a possibility, even in areas like mine where there are no stray dogs.

Methe · 02/04/2014 21:53

You. You keep her in when she is in season.

Bowlersarm · 02/04/2014 21:55

LtEve surely the onus has to be on your friend to keep her bitch secure when she's in season? It is only for a short period of time. It has to be her responsibility.

DuckworthLewis · 02/04/2014 22:43

It's just cruel to keep a dog entire; to have that constant, nagging urge that he cannot fulfil. Far kinder to neuter IMO...

We expect dogs to live a very unnatural life, so the argument that you want your dog to be 'natural' falls over very quickly.

Just out of interest, you mentioned 'cultural differences' - are you not from the Uk?

AdoraBell · 02/04/2014 23:24

Exactly Moosemama. Then Onus is not dependant on the gender of the animal.

I take responsability for all of my dogs, which is why I had the males nuetered too. Unfortunatley where we live it is impossible To ensure they never escape. In this country people open the locked gates, don't bother To close them. They know better and the attitude is "he'll come back" add To that the fact that DH walks them off lead, not permited but he does anyway, I could not gaurantee they will never be be creativo litters all over the place.

But if I had an entire male and he got To LTEve's friend's bitch the onus is not on her To prevent it because she owns the female in season.

Preferthedogtothekids · 02/04/2014 23:41

I have a 4yr old neutered rescue collie.

He's not overweight, his coat is gorgeous, healthy and shiny and he never ever lifts his leg when he's away from home, only at home in our garden. He doesn't look for trouble with other dogs and is the most obedient and cooperative dog I have ever known. Neutering him was most definitely a positive thing :-)

Not to want to castrate my new dog?
Scuttlebutter · 03/04/2014 00:26

I come at this issue unashamedly from the perspective of rescue. I think it's worth standing back a bit and remembering the 1970s and 1980s and the norm back then was for dogs to be un-neutered. It was also the norm for many thousands of stray dogs to be killed each year. Since then, a mountain of studies have cited the effectiveness of large scale spay/neuter programmes in reducing the death toll and the population of stray dogs and gradually, a culture has developed where spay/neuter has been normalised and seen as the responsible thing to do. Most rescues insist on pets they rehome (provided they are old enough) being neutered.

There has also been a big shift in society's attitude to dogs as a whole (you only have to look at some of the threads on here regularly). There is far less tolerance (rightly so) for stray dogs, and aggressive dog behaviour - entire male dogs are over-represented in studies of dog aggression, both dog on dog and dog on human.

Entire dogs do wander after bitches and this makes them vulnerable to straying, to car accidents and to other harm.

Looking at the medical issues, yes, there are some slightly raised risks for some breeds. However, the impact of neutering is tiny compared to the horrific premature death rates for some breeds exacerbated by
adherence to ridicolous pedigree standards, artificially small populations and high COIs. I'd love to see vets (as a body) speaking out much more loudly about some of these issues.

Having your pet neutered also protects against theft. Dog theft is on the rise and an entire male from a popular breed e.g. Lab, poodle, Bichon etc is worth £££ to unscrupulous BYB/puppy farmer.

I think it's helpful to consider the Swiss Cheese Model from Health and Safety (most of us will have seen this on training courses for risk assessment etc.). Yes, of course, highly responsible owners will ensure that their entire dog is carefully and thoroughly trained, always wears ID, has a chip with up to date details, is never left where they could be stolen, never has any access to means of escape, and will never encounter a bitch in heat.

For those of us who are more risk averse, neutering is part of a package for responsible dog ownership. Our dogs all wear appropriate ID at all times, go to training classes and we exercise them responsibly and live in a house with a secure garden. But because we're human, and I can't guarantee that other people are also responsible, we do everything we can to fill in the holes in the cheese. For me, neutering is part of that.

I am very much against early neutering however, and think that there are some serious concerns about the practice of neutering puppies and very young dogs, even more so for larger breeds. I'd like to see some of the bigger rescues who routinely neuter puppies such as Many Tears and RSPCA talk about the health issues around this. I remain to be convinced and agree that sex hormones play a crucial role in growth and development.

I should also add the rider that in rare cases, vets will advise against neutering on medical grounds for an individual dog, and that of course is entirely appropriate.

Sadly, I can see this issue going the way of vaccination, particularly as many of the vets and campaigners who are currently promoting the no-neuter message are usually also anti-vax as well.

AdoraBell · 03/04/2014 02:30

Scuttlebutter I remember the stray dog problem in the 70's and 80's from growing up in London.

I now live in Chile and people in the major cities are just beginning To tackle the problem here. There is, as far as I'm aware, no policy of destroying stray dogs. They simply continúe breeding.

There are Two people I know who do what they can, with their own money and in their spare time. One is currently trying To rehome around a hundred dogs and another waits úntil she has enough money saved then drives To an área notorios for people dumping dogs. She rounds up as many as she can and gets them spayed/nuetered and any injuries treated by a local vet. The vet does as many as she can afford To pay for.

There is also a new programme run by Pedigree for adopting dogs. That started a few years ago.

In rural áreas the dogs are feral and increasing in numbers rápidly.

ThatVikRinA22 · 03/04/2014 02:59

my bitch is neutered. my dog isnt - yet. he is only a baby though at 8 months. if he becomes a pain in the leg shagging department then he will get done.....if he doesnt then i see no need.

merrymouse · 03/04/2014 07:30

When you buy a dog (of whatever sex) it is your legal responsibility to keep it under control. Never mind puppies - If your dog is escaping or running across roads to get to bitch on heat that is your problem.

It doesn't matter whether your dog is dog aggressive, doesn't understand that some people don't like dogs, worrys sheep or is liable to cause an RTA by running across a road. A dog that can't be controlled should not be off lead, regardless of how reasonable/unreasonable anybody else's behaviour is, including walking an unneutered bitch at peak dog walking time. The buck stops with you. If you aren't prepared to take that responsibility that is a very good reason to have your dog neutered.

merrymouse · 03/04/2014 07:32

(That wasn't aimed at Vicar who for all I know has a perfectly trained dog).

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