To think private schools should be banned?

[BethanyBoobs]

Why should someone have a better education just because their parents have money? Why should someone have a better chance of getting into university because their parents paid for their education? It makes me feel uncomfortable that people can buy their kids an upper hand when it comes to education.

I feel the same way about private health care too.

IMO private schools should be banned. Everyone should have the same chances when it comes to their education.

'Meet their needs by all means, but don't do it in a place where it will disrupt other people's education.'

Disruption like you describe whether SN or otherwise, comes from the complete apathy many parents who avail themselves of the private sector for education, have BECAUSE THEY have disengaged with state education.

'Of you think it's ok to have children's attitudes to learning damaged by the disengaged, and you think it's ok to have children's education damaged by disruption, then you can't complain when others pay to protect their children from that.'

Clearly YOU must think is okay, as you have washed your hands of it and opted out, leaving those less fortunate at the mercy of a system you have disengaged from, which as a consequence is likely to have a concentration of more children with needs, and subsequently unmet needs.

So, you suddenly become mega wealthy for whatever reason (not all parents who send their dc to private school live in mansions by the way, some do, but not all), whilst your child attends a state school that isn't brilliant. And the reason they attend that school is because of the area in which you live and because it's a postcode lottery.
Would you move house, to a more affluent area with a brilliant state school in the catchment area and send your child there?

Children with SN are not generally disruptive when fully and appropriately supported. Unfortunately that support is lacking in many schools.

Erm, no I haven't RaRa, my children are at state secondary schools, and before that they were at state primary schools.

I just don't see the problem with disengaging from state education! as long as you don't disengage from education all together.

Obviously not read the whole thread as I have things to do! ;-)
OP I think you're BU.

I would never choose to send my child to a private school but that doesn't mean I think they should be banned.
If I won a million on the lottery I'd use it to buy a fabulous house near a great state school.

Wouldn't actually want to spend it on a private education.
Actually, private schools make me chuckle- when I was at (state) school I did a lot of sport so we mingled with the local posh private schools (and generally beat them at sports!).

From what I recall, my GCSEs and A-level results were the same if not better than those friends at the private schools. Plus the one who went off the rails did it in style, got asked not to come to sixth form and ended up at my school.

Poor parents! After all that £££ spent on private education.
Plus at university (Russell Group) the ones who dropped out or struggled with actually getting work done & passing exams were predominantly privately educated.

Spoon fed to such an extent it was a shock when they actually had to do some work themselves once they got to uni!

Right, have now forgotten the point I was trying to make.
OP you are BU.
You can't ban private schools, there's always people out there ready & willing to pay for them!

I can't believe some of the ideas on this thread that see independent schools as the root of all inequalities in society and think they are full of the rich and powerful who have no idea about the real world.

The town I live in has 3 - yes 3 independent schools - and we are a long way from the South East and not what you'd call a posh or a rich town. The schools draw from a wide area. In addition, the town has a state secondary and 6th form college both rated outstanding. We are very lucky.

There is very little difference in the type of people that attend these schools. DS goes to one of the private school and most of his peers are the children of middle class businessmen or military families - not a Lord or Lady Snooty amongst them. EG. some parents I know run a gym, another works in the family amusement arcade, another is a senior sales manager. All of these live in terraced houses and fore go holidays and fancy cars in order to afford the fees. Their money is all hard earned.

Abolishing the independent schools wouldn't put a penny more into the state sector - in fact it would cost the state more as currently private school parents pay twice to educate their children.

This:

private education damages society in some of the same ways apartheid did

and

Disruption like you describe whether SN or otherwise, comes from the complete apathy many parents who avail themselves of the private sector for education, have BECAUSE THEY have disengaged with state education.

I think there's some serious straw grasping going on now. You don't like the idea of independent, fee paying schools. We get it. Nobody's trying to change your mind; just trying to protect something which is fundamentally a personal choice.

Abolishing the independent schools wouldn't put a penny more into the state sector - in fact it would cost the state more as currently private school parents pay twice to educate their children.

^This

I haven't been through the whole thread so apologies if this has already been posted, but this report makes interesting reading.

www.isc.co.uk/research/Publications/independent-schools-economic-impact-report

If I won the lottery and I didn't like where I lived, I'd move. As it stands, I'd have a dilemma finding a lovely big expensive house without moving out of the catchment of the school my kids are at, though. I live in a ghetto of people who live in normal houses, aren't I a hypocrite?

I don't even play the lottery.

Wealth means choice, if my DCs did not get into a particular school due to lottery admissions I would move to an area with a greater number of good/ outstanding schools. In poorer areas the parents are as invested as I am in their DCs, being poor does not make a person dysfunctional however dysfunctional families have a higher percentage of being poor. I have the choice to move away as I have done. Personally I would do away with pupil premium and instead invest more in struggling school by reducing class sizes with more specialist teachers. Whilst I would never suggest apartheid we do need to break cycles. This has no bearing with private education.

If I won a million on the lottery I'd use it to buy a fabulous house near a great state school

Which is just another way of paying for the education you want for your child.

I don't know whether to be aghast or giggle that someone has actually compared private education to apartheid

I was questioned up thread why I thought private schools developing confidence,a sense of entitlement and providing networking opportunities was bad. What I think is bad is that these advantages are not available for all young people.

I once tried to get some of my state school pupils who were interested in studying medicine,work experience in a local hospital. I was given all sorts of excuses why it was not possible. Imagine my annoyance on hearing a local private school pupil was not only granted work experience but was seconded to a top surgeon, a old boy of the school. It is this sort of advantage I am against, money should not be able to buy these chances, state school pupils should not be sidelined.

It is not just some able individuals but society in general that is the poorer as a result.

Well, the confidence and the sense of entitlement come in large part from being in the 7%. You need the 93% for that. Which is one of the things I find so distasteful about private schools.

There may have been other reasons why you couldn't get students work experience in a hospital. I remember the waiting lists being huge for NHS work experience places when I was younger. It could have been that the hospital preferred it's student to apply for their own placements rather than having someone else do it for them. Maybe the private school pupil had applied first.

It could of course be that he was found a placement because of who he knows, but this happens in all walks of life, not just at the top. Think of all the people in the construction industry that get jobs through word of mouth, the kids that want to do photography having a wedding photographer for an uncle who lets them tag along. Back in the days of proper trade apprenticeships, plenty of opportunities were given to the sons of friends, I know my solidly working class DH got his that way. I expect it happens in most industries, it certainly happens at all income levels.

If you want to get rid of people giving personal recommendations for work opportunities then you have to do it across the board. If it's not fair in careers that can command high wages then it's not fair in careers that command low or average wages either.

TheOriginal. You are right of course. To be successful you need the unsuccessful, to be wealthy you need the poor and keeping others down is part of this. Trouble is this is often nothing to do with ability, commitment or the type of person you are. Private schools are the reinforcers of these largely unfair social divisions.

Take your point Woo Woo but as you illustrate advantages related to who you know are very socially stratified. What happens to the kid who can get an apprenticeship with his bricklayer uncle but would like to do medicine or work in the media or in law? Who you know serves to keep you in your place. This allows the 7% to take the best opportunities, it takes an exceptionally talented state school pupil to break through these barriers.

it takes an exceptionally talented state school pupil to break through these barriers.

Not true. Both my brother and I are very successful in our fields and neither of us were privately educated. In fact my brother is about to take up a very senior position in one of the biggest retail businesses in the States.

To think that all doors are closed to you because of your background is a big mistake. There are ways and means of getting where you want to be and if you're talented at what you do that is recognised. Wandering through life with a chip on your shoulder about the cards you were dealt through birth however is not the way to go about it.

I see your point, but there are plenty of doctors/lawyers/pilots/journalists etc who have children at state schools. I know there are plenty at the state schools my children go to. State schools are not all full of children with uneducated parents with failed careers.

I agree that 'who you know' can have a lot to do with a persons future career opportunity, but I honestly don't believe it's that significant a problem, especially as it's something that's done by people from all walks of life. I went to private school, I can honestly say that none of the people I still know from school were advantaged in this way, with the exception of one who now works with horses.

Most public schools do not contain some kind of elite, they do not all have a strong old boys network going on. Just as not all state schools are places where opportunities for careers in medicine or law are severely limited.

I live within catchment of numerous 'outstanding' state schools. None of them are a patch on the nearest independent. I don't regret sending my DC there - would rather invest in their education than buying a bigger house, flasher cars etc.

applefalling, but our local state school is jammed full with parents who are doctors, lawyers and other professionals. I know at least two parents at my local catchment primary who are consultants at our local hospital so doubt very much you'd have that problem here!

Would also add that just because parents are doctors, lawyers, other professionals, it doesn't mean that they are good parents who spend time with their children. Education doesn't start and end at the school gates,

What is the difference between sending your children to private school and buying a house in a wealthy area so that they can go to a good state school? Both are the same thing IMO. Drives me mad when I see people in the media crowing about "making it" despite only going to a state school, then it turns out the state school was somewhere like Holland Park.

There is way too much black-and-white thinking on this thread about how state v private education decides your life chances, future earnings, career path etc. It is one factor, but only one among many.

FWIW, my DH was a state school pupil who went to Cambridge and later set up a thriving business in a very high-earning, competitive sector. His business partner was also state educated and didn't even go to university. One of their employees was an old Etonian - they don't always get to boss the state school kids around.

Meanwhile, some of my private school/Oxbridge friends are struggling lone parents working part-time, or doing worthy but hardly elite or lucrative jobs like teaching or mental health nursing. Not everyone ends up in the cabinet or running an investment bank.