To think private schools should be banned?

[BethanyBoobs]

Why should someone have a better education just because their parents have money? Why should someone have a better chance of getting into university because their parents paid for their education? It makes me feel uncomfortable that people can buy their kids an upper hand when it comes to education.

I feel the same way about private health care too.

IMO private schools should be banned. Everyone should have the same chances when it comes to their education.

Yes, I think the super ann issue is a bit cheeky.

Private schools should meet this, I believe.

But the saving there is not huge and would have no real impact on the state system. We're simply not talking baout sufficient teachers.

So you put an extra 500,000 children into the state system. Where are the school places for all these children? And if the same education budget has to pay for them, the money received by schools per pupil, would have to fall. If there are currently 8.2 million children in the state sector, and on average each school receives £4500 per pupil per year, then if the budget is finite, the pupil funding would need to drop down to £4240 per pupil. If the budget were to rise with the children, then taxes would need to increase.

What about private nurseries too? Some cost more than others, and have better facilities etc. Or access to private tutors? Access to good computers at home and the internet? What about intelligence? Should the brighter children somehow be handicapped to hold them back so everyone learns at the same pace? You could take that sort of thinking further and further, and even when you get a communist system, it becomes corrupt (because that is what power does). Look at Animal Farm and the Russian Revolution!

In an ideal world, i'd say private schools fees should be capped at the level thats not unaffordable to regular hard working folks.

If we did ban private schools why would the rich have to pay a fee to use state schools when they already pay a premium through higher taxes? ...

And I don't have the money to send my son to a private school btw, so I'm not arguing for something I'll ever use.

8nataleejah* I believe in Australia that each parent is given a voucher, with which they can pay for state education or top up for private education.

It's staggering how many people on this thread have asserted that private education is necessarily/obviously better than state.

In my opinion and experience - absolutley not so.

It's really not that black and white that 'you get what you pay for'.

I went to private school. My two elder daughters go to a state secondary, my youngest to state primary. They all get a terrific education and so much more than just academic excellence - social diversity is vital I believe, esp if you live in London. The private schools are predominantly white/middle class where we live. My kids' schools are community schools ie their friends and lives are in the same area, there are not 10 mile car journeys to visit friends and there is none of that horrible competitive money/lifestyle thing you get at private schools.

Oh and we can afford to send them private so the 'jealousy' argument is bullshit too. Well it is in my case.

So why not just leave us that want to pay, do so? comeat

We're not harming anyone if you're getting what you want.

And In some areas of the uk it wouldn't change the demographic were THE posh parents put there children state or not the -ortery springs to mind

I am afraid how ever much you want to think other children's parents can change a child life's chances I afraid you know deep down it's there own I feel very sorry for children who are poor and have shit parents but forceing my son to attend the same school will not change the fact the other child's parents value education little don't turn up to parents evening don't sighs the homework diary don't insist they are on time for school and don't get there children involved in activitys after school
you find whatever your income children who have parents who value education tend to do well

Fine, let's maintain the right of better-off people to educate their children privately. But, they should pay the actual cost of private education. Not just fees, but the added costs to the rest of society of creaming off state-educated teachers and the impact of segregating communities and thus driving standards down for the vast majority.

Okaaaaay! Sorry if I wasn't clear enough :/

Not all private schools teachers wages are SOLElY met by the the school fees. Quite often money from the state is out into private schooling in one way or another (if you don't believe that you are very naive)

If you were to ban all private schools - then the teachers teaching there, could go into state schools.

Remember private schools are in buildings that are often owned by the council / government so the general maintenance is not (again) always covered by parents fees. We pay to tax to run those buildings.

Finally , the more kids in state schools = more money from the kids parents going into state schools (fairs/trips etc etc)

poster Comeatmefam

i think I would rather take my chances with a school like Eaton than my local sink school

Also your not just paying for the education as others have said going to the right sort of schools opends doors and also it's about havering your child share a large part of there days with people who have the same values

I'm not sure anyone has asserted that private is always better than state. The country is full of excellent (in the true sense of the word) state schools. There are also some very poor state schools. The private sector is similar.

A few people are happy to pay for the silly little school with ridiculous uniform and no facilities next door to the thriving, vibrant state primary; but not many. The vast majority of fee paying parents do it for complex reasons ranging from wraparound care to class sizes to a particular focus on a particular sport. They are looking for something extra rather than trying to avoid a wide social mix.

Exactly what Wordfactory said. Why take away a facility from people who want to use it and are more than happy to pay to do so? If you don't want to/can't send your children to private school, then why would you want to take the option away from others?

I'd love to send my DS privately, but there is no way on earth I could, that doesn't mean that other people shouldn't be able to!

I think what a lot of people are overlooking/choosing to ignore when discussing the relative value/fairness of a private school system, is that the 'outcomes' for children who attend private schools are often related to the life long effect that buying a socially exclusive peer group has.

People don't just send their dcs to private schools because they think their dcs will get a better crop of A-level results. For starters it's perfectly possible to attain excellent A-level schools at a state school if the student is motivated and diligent. Then research also shows that university students who attended state school of often out-perform private school students with similar, or even better grades. Again, this comes down to diligence.

But what a private school also buys you, that 3As from a state school won't, is an affluent peer group, with a socially exclusive background, who benefit from the social connections and opportunities granted by their school and peer network.

That's what the well intentioned argument that we should simply concentrate on making state schools better will never address. Improving the staff to pupil ratios at a state school, offering a better choice of languages for GSCE and A-Level, and climbing up the Ofsted rankings will not make one whit of a difference to the fact that many people send children to fee paying schools in order to secure their place in a socially exclusive peer group, and benefit from those norms, networks and connections.

That's why private education is so divisive. It's intended to be divisive.

poster Odaat not really so you assume that all the private school teachers would work in the state if they had no choice

I can tell you my oh is a nurse works for a private company and would leave nursing if he had to go back to the NHS eating his luch in the toilet no were even provided to even have a shower ffs when he covered in blood and shit

Comeatmefam

The thing is you complain that people have generalised that "private is better" and yet you generalise by saying "they are not 10 mile car journeys to visit friends and there is none of that horrible competitive money/lifestyle thing you get at private schools". Surely you missed out the word "some" there.

I think there are misconceptions on both sides. I am under no illusion that all private schools are better than state schools. But where we are, the private IS better than the state schools. And more importantly the education, small size and gentle, nurturing atmosphere means our daughter is getting the best education FOR HER. It may not be the best education for someone else - but isn't that what we do as parents? Do the best for our children within our means?

Personally if I could afford private I would be off in a seconed

Good luck to those with little ones and we shall see if they indeed put there child in the local sink to to raise standards or doing what many of the labour left do quietly move to a quite nice part of London and and get there child into the type of school which are state but only in name muswell hill state school lol

Everyone has their own reasons for choosing state or private. Where we live over 25% of children attend private schools. If all those children were to come out into the state sector it wouldn't be able to accommodate them.

We send our children to private schools because it's the best option for them within the means we have. I don't see it as any different to paying a premium for a property in a good catchment area or worse still, lying to get your child into your chosen school or suddenly rediscovering your Catholic faith. Somehow actually paying directly to secure the best education you can for your child is worse than buying into the best the state can offer.

No, private schools aren't necessarily better than good state schools, but they are a hell of a lot better than the bad ones and that's why we use them.

My kids have been to 4 different private schools in total. At none was the teachers wages or the buildings being paid for by tax payers money.

So how would this new influx of teachers help the state system? Are you suggesting teaching is good in the private sector and poor in the state sector? This simply isn't true! That's before you even get to the issue that in many areas NQTs are struggling to get jobs due to their not being enough posts for them.

So where are all these spaces just waiting for the influx of kids from private schools. How would those parents suddenly bring more money in? There are still only 30 places per reception class. Only tangible difference may be if all those parents moved their children into really disadvantaged school areas which isn't going to happen.

odaat very few independent schhols are in buildings owned by the state.

Most schools own their own building these days.

The figures you are talking about in state support are tiny in comparison to the education budget. They are simply not going to make an appreciable difference.

The only way to raise the cash is to bump up taxes. But that would be for everyone, not just those in private schools....

odaat, nothing you've mentioned would even begin to cover the cost of a more than 7% bump in state school students.

Odaat

Could you provide us with some concrete evidence of this please?

Cross posted with wordfactory.

Fusedog that quote wasn't mine..?

Fleta I said that in my experience private is not in some way a blanket 'better'. That's what I find a bit stupid - 'I'd send mine private in a shot'. What any generic, private school? . And I said that in my experience there are more positives going for state education. In my experience, in my opinion, in my area.