To think a law against emotional cruetly to children is too vague and unenforcable

[ReallyTired]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26814427

Certainly many children do suffer an unreasonable level of emotional cruetly, but how would a "cinderella" law work in practice? Most cases of emotional abuse are not as clear cut as cinderella. Those who emotionally abuse children are rather more subtle and shrewd than cinderella's step mother.

Surely social workers have enough of a case load managing neglect, physical abuse and sexual abuse cases. What standard of parenting is good enough? Most parents need support rather than criminalisation.A child whose mother has the occassional mood swing, but is loved 99% of time is probably better off with a loving but imperfect parent than going into the care system.

Does it mean that schools will call in social services when there is a difference of opinon of parenting style or child complains when the parent does something the kid doesn't like. (ie. A parent remarries? Punishing appauling behaviour?) Sometimes children make malicious accusations, so how would you sort out the real emotional abuse from tall stories. Emotional abuse is next to impossible to prove in court.

How do we protect children against toxic parents without making it impossible to discpline our children or for parents to have some say how they lead their lives? (Ie. commiting the "emotional abuse" of putting a young baby in full time nursery so that everyone can have a roof over their heads or controlled crying.)

I'm currently trying to teach my ASD son that it's not OK to call others a retard. He got so used to the term being applied to himself at his last school that he honestly doesn't see what the problem is. (His self-esteem was on the floor by the time I pulled him out). How do you police this sort of thing, given that parents (especially Mums) have NO power when up against the "professionals"? Any help for him is only obtainable outside the NHS by the way.

Over on the SN board there are always a few school refusers at any one time - kids too traumatised by the school experience to be able to attend. Is this emotional abuse?

How do you police the family that appear perfect to the outside world but are really nasty to their kids behind closed doors? Or policing the parents of other cultures where the humour etc is genuinely VERY different.

I have to be honest and say I'd rather resources were thrown at stamping out completely forced marriage, sexual exploitation (this happens a LOT to both sexes in care btw) and fgm. These are all far more provable in a court of law yet are still common occurrences in today's Britain.

I'd also like to see far more investment in direct delivery of specialised cahms services instead of half-baked "parenting" courses that can be run by almost anyone. We badly need more postgraduate qualified experts in specific areas of child mental health including secondary disorders at the coal face.

Thanks for the explanation of at risk of emotional abuse - that makes sense for the subsequent unborn siblings in a family where there has already been an issue. It did have me confused!

If political fashions change in parenting practice as often as they do education this new law could lead to a family being considered exemplary one year and beyond the pale the next. That worries me. We need to see existing laws implemented properly, rather than drafting up new half-baked nonsense.

Dawndonna how fantastic that your frankly (sorry) bitch of a mother didn't manage to divide you and your sister and that you are close. do you mind me adk

sorry phone.

do you mind me asking if you see your mother or have told family/friends about the abuse?

suburban the waiting list here for accessing child services is long. it's lucky for us we had access to solicitors funds so could get seen privately but that's not really acceptable.

What margerybruce said, basically, my parents were teachers too, added bonus of one having a serious drink problem. Jail would have made no difference, it would have been one more case of no-one understanding her (my mother) and how hard it all was.

The question is really how a child learns that emotional abuse and emotional neglect is NOT normal. And what healthy relationships are, so that the patterns of abuse are not repeated in adulthood in their intimate partner relationships. And then, how to model healthy relationships to their own children to break the cycle. That is what will effect change in the long term.

Daffo - I agree with that wholeheartedly. But who will teach these healthy relationships? All these disordered teachers!?

"The question is really how a child learns that emotional abuse and emotional neglect is NOT normal. And what healthy relationships are, so that the patterns of abuse are not repeated in adulthood in their intimate partner relationships. And then, how to model healthy relationships to their own children to break the cycle. That is what will effect change in the long term."

Schools do really try to teach what a good relationship is through PHSCE lessons. It is not easy as lots of teachers, social workers and health professionals have their own issues. However part of professionalism is being able to partition your personal life from your professional life. I feel it would be very sad to bar a care leaver from training to be social worker.

Well, that is a good question margery. Would it need to be taught in schools? Probably yes, as teachers have the most contact with children after parents.

I am no expert, but I think the disordered would be perfectly able to teach something in theory, all the whilst seeing it as having nothing to do with them personally.

The very nebulousness of emotional abuse and the secrecy of it in most (because the perpetrators wish to maintain public approval) will make it exceedingly difficult to identify in the first place. And children who have been "abandoned" to wilfully abusive families will in all likelihood have a profound distrust of other adults anyway I know I did.

Schools do really try to teach what a good relationship is through PHSCE lessons.

That may well be true now, it wasn't 30 years ago.

My DD did get a little brochure home with some details and phone numbers to call if she didn't feel safe in any way. I thought that was quite good, but she is still quite young, so I don't know how much more they will be doing around that.

And I think it is also what you do if things are not good, as well.

It’s quite simple, until you improve the quality of who you draw into the pool of CPW's, get them past their own ego’s and prejudices, pay them well and consider them valuable, reduce political control of them, and make it a respectable profession, but give those on the recieving end right of transparency and redress when things are done wrongly and badly, it doesn’t matter what laws you bring in, or what level you decide constitutes illegal abuse rather than sorry arsed parenting, there will be as much damage done to some in the name of CP, as there is prevention done to others.

I think to successfully teach young people about healthy relationships the teacher should have awareness of themselves and empathy for others.

I personally don't think it's something that can be impartially imparted to others like physics or something.

Trust must be built with pupils/students and the teacher would surely have to be available for any of their students to disclose worrying situations to them?

I think that many abusive people have empathy for their victims. They know how to hurt children and malipulate others. It takes a good understanding of theory of mind to get away with the abuse that some posters have described.

"Trust must be built with pupils/students and the teacher would surely have to be available for any of their students to disclose worrying situations to them?"

My son's school has the head of year take PHSCE. She is absolutely lovely.

I dunno -my DC are now in higher education so perhaps this happens already in schools? But I don't remember them telling me anything about receiving this kind of education while they were at school.

X post.

Yes I think it has to be a lovely person.

My mother has no theory of mind. Not sure about my father.

I think there is an important misunderstanding in many of the posts on this thread.

The new law is not about taking children into care or involving social workers etc. Emotional neglect and abuse are already grounds on which a child might be assessed as being in need or at risk of suffering significant harm. So social workers might already consider emotional harm when assessing whether a child has been neglected. The NSPCC has a useful fact sheet about neglect and you can see that here Emotional harm is a difficult concept to define but the courts and social workers are already working with it.

What this is about is bringing the criminal law into line with those standards. The current criminal law comes from the Victorian poor law and only allows people who "wilfully" neglect or abuse their child causing physical injury or "mental derangement" (the term used in the law - you can see just how old and unworkable it is from that phrase) to be convicted. That means that children who've been seriously abused and neglected but 'just' have emotional harm aren't protected by the criminal law. It also means that neglect that isn't 'wilful' cannot be criminal. Finally, it means that the police are working to a completely different (and outdated) standard compared to the social workers.

Action for Children led the campaign and their assessment of the old law and proposals for the new law are here If you look on page 10, that gives the wording that they propose for the new law. I've no idea whether the Govt are planning to use that wording or something else but I hope that makes it clearer

I agree with others that EA is just too subjective. With physical abuse, you know what is unacceptable. But just what is EA? People I know who had a 60s/70s childhood - ie decent enough parents but rather undemonstrative - are now in therapy and angry at their parents for never showing affection, or not letting them make choices etc etc. So they are putting their parents on trial for not being modern parents . In a few decades' time the current crop of children may well be beating a path to the psychiatrist's door to complain about things we are doing which will turn out to be no-nos.

Yup, this is just another cynical Tory headline grabber!!!
In reality Childrens Services already deal with this, each and every day, both at Child in Need and Safeguarding levels!
The categories for abuse are physical, sexual, emotional abuse and neglect.

I am quite wary of how any professional is going to discover this EA. I was subjected to a lot of it in my junior years and it made me fearful of my mother (I was so well behaved, people always commented - cacking my pants more like!) but I didn't see that it was a problem until I was around 11. She was an alcoholic and I used to look after her most nights when she wouldn't be able to get to bed herself, for example. It wasn't until I went to a few friends houses when we were older and stayed the night that I saw other mothers who didn't do the Jekyll and Hyde that my mum did. I do remember the constant belittling, name calling, disgust and blaming my father's genes for my stupidity/ganglyness/laziness/common streaks/clumsiness/lack of imagination/fat stomach etc - it went on until she died! However it was just the way it was at home and I knew no different. My dad had been on the receiving end of it, but they divorced when I was 4 so I was left to deal with her on my own until SS got involved and I was sent to boarding school as neither parent was deemed fit. However as far as I know my 'file' was never passed on to the school. So they inherited a 6yo who was constantly fearful that her mother would be burning her house down with a fag at home because she wouldn't be there to get her to bed safely. Even when she called the school drunk (to the point the headmistress asked me to stop her calling!) they didn't intervene. As adults, and the primary carers of me whilst at school, I do feel they should have been more proactive. It hurt more when I knew they were ignoring everything going on as they were 'stable' whereas I could see my family clearly wasn't.

YNK - I am no fan of the Torys but it is not a cynical headline grabber, Action for Children have been campaigning for it for ages.

You're completely right, children's services all over the country deal with this already and constantly but this is about brining the criminal law into line with that reality, not changing the work of social workers.

The only thing I do think it may help with is evidence gathering for SS - if evidence of it tipped the balance for a child at serious risk and was the final part of the puzzle so that they could be safely re-homed/fostered, then perhaps it is something that could really make a difference?

thebody I recognised fairly early on (mid twenties) that mother had problems. Dad (he left when I was 13) tried to help too. I gave mother chance after chance, with some breaks inbetween. However, after the death of my grandmother (her mother, who had been wonderfully protective when she could) I stopped seeing her, although still polite when she 'phoned looking for attention. In September that year, she sent dd1 a birthday card, some money and a note suggesting she email 'grandmama'. She sent her twin nothing. No fucker plays games with my children. I'm 55 and in many ways I'm lucky. I have wonderful children - ds1 (29) organised a fab day, yesterday. I have a good dh and solid relationships with my family and my sisters fabulous family. Occasionally, things tip you off course a little, sis says the same. Something will happen to one of your children and you deal with it, sort it for the dc and then you're slapped in the face remembering something awful she will have done. You survive, and some days it hurts. The days when you want a mum, even at our age, and you know it's never going to be. There are the days you don't understand, not what you did to deserve it, but why she had children and was allowed to continue to do so, not understanding how she could do those things to a vulnerable person, things you would not dream of doing to your children and would frankly damage anyone who tried. Knowing she's a narcissist doesn't help. However, knowing my 29 year old comes home every weekend because he wants to, and that my direct family rally round if needed, that makes everything alright, it makes me everything she isn't. It's taken a very long time to get this far and it wasn't an easy journey, but I win!

TessD, thank you, that's what I was trying to say (though less articulately than you) upthread.

Don't know if anyone's listening though!

Devora - I am listening. I said it's a good thing but I wondered who will police it and how it will work in practice?

And the issue of the child thinking their home life is normal? The abused child doesn't have any idea they are abused until they are older and can compare with others - or even until they have their own children.

Thanks Tess. I am pleased, but still skeptical re the timing.
I would love to see prosecutions in line with the law for many other things too, such as domestic abuse and fgm.

I personally don't think it's something that can be impartially imparted to others like physics or something

That is an interesting point. To an extent, I think there are principles which should be accepted and imparted like physics - the concept of healthy personal boundaries; how to recognise controlling behaviour; what is bullying etc.; where you go if you need to talk to someone etc.

I think a nice lovely teacher would be ideal, but really, the point is to encourage children to speak to someone they trust, it does not have to be the teacher.