To think a law against emotional cruetly to children is too vague and unenforcable

[ReallyTired]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26814427

Certainly many children do suffer an unreasonable level of emotional cruetly, but how would a "cinderella" law work in practice? Most cases of emotional abuse are not as clear cut as cinderella. Those who emotionally abuse children are rather more subtle and shrewd than cinderella's step mother.

Surely social workers have enough of a case load managing neglect, physical abuse and sexual abuse cases. What standard of parenting is good enough? Most parents need support rather than criminalisation.A child whose mother has the occassional mood swing, but is loved 99% of time is probably better off with a loving but imperfect parent than going into the care system.

Does it mean that schools will call in social services when there is a difference of opinon of parenting style or child complains when the parent does something the kid doesn't like. (ie. A parent remarries? Punishing appauling behaviour?) Sometimes children make malicious accusations, so how would you sort out the real emotional abuse from tall stories. Emotional abuse is next to impossible to prove in court.

How do we protect children against toxic parents without making it impossible to discpline our children or for parents to have some say how they lead their lives? (Ie. commiting the "emotional abuse" of putting a young baby in full time nursery so that everyone can have a roof over their heads or controlled crying.)

very difficult to understand.

I was fed and clothed,
but nothing else,

no wonder I became a homeless runaway,
looking for something?

but as a kid,
how did I know what that something was?

ea as bad as indifference or physicial abuse.
wish I had been sent to a kibbutz!

"Children arent being isolated? Belittled and rejected? Aren't co-erced into criminal or anti-social behaviour?"

SEAL was an attempt to help children to learn to resolve these issues for themselves. Other attempts have included protective behaviour courses and resilence training. It is hard to assess the effectiveness of these initatives.

As children grow up it becomes harder and hard to wrap them in cotton wool. A good school has strong anti bullying policy with several strands. The pastural care team works with both the victims and the bullies.

The proposals for protecting chidren from emotional abuse is aimed at young children who cannot protect themselves. In a school setting there is generally more than one adult in the room. Not to say that emotional abuse never happens, but its harder to get away with repeated emotionally abusive behaviour in a well run school.

In a home setting abuse is more of a problem because its behind closed doors. Hence the sucessful head teacher who tears her own children to shreds emotionally with sarcasm never being caught.

My objection to a new law is that it wouldn't work and take away resources from other areas of child protection.

urigeller if you know of this level of emotional abuse happening in a school, you should be reporting it.

And why do you admit that children aren't coerced into criminal and anti-social activity at school only when someone pulls you up on it? Why make the allegation at all?

You can't police the love within a family where there no other manifestation of abuse.

No, but you make damn sure that children know that a parent telling them that they (the parent) regrets not having an abortion, is a reflection on the parent and not the child. You can raise awareness that appearances can be deceiving and that just because a child has every material thing they could want doesn't mean they're living a charmed life. You can actually listen when a child/teenager says 'my mother hates me', not just put it down to hormones/poor communication/temper.

Emotional/psychological bullying is always the hardest to deal with; it's the most difficult to see because often there isn't any one thing that can be pointed out as being 'bullying' or 'abusive', EA and psychological bullying is like a death of a thousand cuts...it cumulative.

On the face of it, I think I agree with this proposal. It mirrors the recent changes to the DV definition, doesn't it? I think it just pulls the law into line with current child protection philosophy and practice.

Frankly, it's ridiculous to think that this will be used to criminalise parents who occasionally lose their rag. And I don't think it will add to social workers' caseload. They are dealing wtih these children already; I think this change will just make it easier for them to do that work efficiently.

Thank you for that post, really.

I don't think urigeller has any idea of the time and effort that go into building emotional resilience in children and nurturing their well being while they are in school.

Andro

Surely its better to invest in pychological support and councelling for children to help with the affects of emotional abuse. Child mental health is the cinderalla of the NHS. A child with mental health issues cannot take medication and waiting list for pychiatric support is shocking. We need councelling services in schools.

My son had six CBT sessions on the NHS. He only got support after 6 months because he was hearing voices. (Really I hope it wasn't my parenting that made him so ill! GP tells me there is strong element of genetics. I believe it was his primary school putting so much pressure on him with SATs. Certainly he has had no problems since going to secondary.)

Emotional abuse is so hard to prove whereas neglect and physical abuse stare you in the face. Often well cared for children with intelligent parents are subjected to horrendous emotional abuse and it can have many long lasting and damaging effects on children as they grow into adults. I am a SW and know of plenty cases where emotional abuse was the only reason for being involved. It is taken very seriously.

I was talking to dh about this this morning. When I used to be involved in child protection and did all the courses, it was always pointed out that EA is so difficult to spot. Having a 'bad day' happens to us all, it's obviously when it's sustained that it becomes a worry.

I could say I was subjected to EA by my mother, and, in fact still am! Being told I'm worthless and never praised etc.

A very difficult one.

it's so hard though isn't it to quantify.

Dawndonnas posts are always very shocking as you do have a picture in your head of a bad bad parent and the picture isn't usually a head teacher who keeps their children clean and well fed but denying the really important aspects of parenting such as love/empathy/kindness and care.

what about very religious families? if a child is compelled to dress/act/pray a certain way? how about the teaching of 'heaven and sin' is that cruel?

I have friends whose parenting I would consider very dodgy as they don't listen to their teenagers, no parties are allowed, no going into town, no makeup, they seem to take great pleasure in isolating their kids so they can smile smugly and feel superior. they arnt. the kids can't wait to leave home and do lots of worrying things behind their parents backs. but is that abuse?

how on earth can you police or teach a parent who actually doesn't see the need to accommodate, help, nurture or basically love their child.

Was just listening to a discussion on Radio 4. One of the celebrity types mentioned that her father would call her "a big fat zero, everything you touch turns to crap" several times a day. She says that she is grateful for that, as it means that she has spent her life proving herself, and so has achieved a lot!

ReallyTired - I agree that mental health in general and child mental health care in particular needs a lot more support and a higher profile.

However:

Surely its better to invest in pychological support and councelling for children to help with the affects of emotional abuse.

No, I think that preventing the damage (where possible) is vastly preferable to treating the effects after the fact.

urigeller as a primary school TA I can assure you that all the teachers I know and myself included spend a massive part of out day praising and affirming the children.

one positive comment makes a child grow, lots of them
make them tall.

I like my class 2 children to have very tall days.

As a child I and my siblings were constantly emotionally abused by my mother. I grew up being told that she wished she had me aborted, I was a fucking cunt, selfish bitch. That she hated me, shut your mouth before I do it for you. Beaten with a rubber soled shoe on my mouth until it swelled up. Humiliated after and made to go out in public with swollen lips from it.
We lived in constant fear of her verbal abuse daily. We were all put on the at risk register but it failed to protect us. I wish that this had been in force whilst growing up. Then maybe I wouldn't have been diagnosed with PTSD and wouldn't still be carrying the emotional scars and damage to this day.

Yes, REALLY TIRED, too vague to get convictions.

RACHEL BURDEN did it on her phone in on 5-Live.

Good fo0r getting headlines for the Tories though. (The electioneering is gewtting a bore already)

RealiyTired totally agree with your comments in child mental health.

my dd was involved with other children in a terrible incident that received international reporting.

we were assured by the authorities that our children would be helped with councelling sessions. one week later the so called professionals had vanished never to be seen in school again.

the only counselling sessions we all had were through the solicitors organisation which they paid for.

absolutely crap.

pulled up ? Are you a teacher by any chance?

You're right I don't have any idea of time and effort going into building emotional resilience of children in schools. But I'm a parent, I only have MY children's emotional wellbeing to worry about.

I was asking if schools will be held accountable for their part in any emotional neglect when children start having to attend a 10 hour day there (as has been proposed).

bongobaby so sorry. did anyone comment in your lips, if they had would that have alerted the authorities or would you not have disclosed?

We must be very lucky then.

We have a BACP counsellor for children in our school (community primary) as well as access to the CAMHS school nurse. Both of these professionals provide amazing support for our children emotional wellbeing.

bongo, I'm so sorry to hear about your childhood. I hope you are getting the help you need as an adult

It's great to be concerned for the emotional well-being of a child, but I think it's hopeless to define it in a useful way.

Will people who only see their children when they are on holiday from boarding school be considered better parents than those who let their kids play outside in the street in the summer?

And what will you do with the parent who says "but the child must learn to fear god every day or he will go to hell. I tell them this every day"?

Is that kindness or cruelty?

I agree with those saying it seems too vague and nebulous a concept at the moment.

There are some clear cut cases of mental and emotional cruelty to children, but many are not so clear cut.

I am not saying that there should not be more protection for vulnerable children, and those who have posted with clear stories of such abuse from their families really do have my full empathy.

I would like to see more of how this is to be worded. I would worry that it is all going to be too subjective. One person's idea of setting boundaries for their child could be another's idea of imposing too many restrictions, holding their social and emotional development back etc. Where is the line drawn? That worries me with this sort of thing. How do you define it?

I think it should be included within the types of abuse children may suffer from their parents. So, I welcome the proposal although I understand people's comments that it may be harder to define or prove, and when it is present possibly harder to decide on the best ways forward for the child.
Support to the whole family can be an important option I agree.

uri, yes, pulled up, as in challenged your assertion that school staff and encourage children into crime and anti-social behaviour.

If you consider a 10-hour day to be tantamount to emotional abuse, you should be targeting your rage at the people who make education law. You know, government ministers. Or maybe wait until it actually becomes a white paper and save your froth for then.

I bet you wouldn't find any teacher who would vote for a 10-hour day. And I'm not one, but thank you for the compliment

bongobaby
I'm sorry that no one was able to protect you from the hideous abuse you experienced. You were badly let down as a child.

I am not sure that this law on emotional abuse would help as social services need the funds to stop EA happening.

"I would like to see more of how this is to be worded. I would worry that it is all going to be too subjective. One person's idea of setting boundaries for their child could be another's idea of imposing too many restrictions, holding their social and emotional development back etc. Where is the line drawn? That worries me with this sort of thing. How do you define it?"

I worry about the subjective nature of EA. For example I allowed my son to walk home from school by himself from the age of eight. Other people don't allow their eleven yaer old children to walk home. I worry that we can get caught up in parenting triva miss real EA.