To think it is time to secularise all state-funded education?

[fideline]

Just that really.

I find the wearing of veils insulting to my daughters. It denies their humanity. To me.

But is anybody saying your daughters have to wear veils?

YANBU.

I have no idea at all why any religion should play any part in any school other than as part of an RE or History class.

Schools are for educating children not forcing beliefs upon them.

Great link Kleptronic, thanks for that.

Secularising schools will save us all running round in December finding shepherd costumes... No more nativities will be a relief... I think that happens in US schools where any reference to religion is banned, isn't it ? (from what I've heard from US friend teachers)

sashh that is a very good point about universities and colleges. The situation in France and in the US in particular though makes me wonder if an entirely secular state education system is desirable. That's why I say we should be careful what we wish for.

mart - I brought up my feelings about the tone of some posts on other threads because I worry that it's prejudice which drives some people's calls for secularisation.

fwiw I would like all schools to cater for children of all faiths.

I get the impression btw that people are confusing nim and I, or that there are suspicions of sockpuppetry. We are quite categorically not one and the same.

Good point about universities. They typically have a multifaith chaplaincy (that is, they employ leaders from various Christian denominations, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, etc to minister to the student body) but nobody is under any obligation to attend anything nor perform any ceremonies.

With the possible exception of graduation, now I come to think of it. We had to opt out if we preferred to have wording other than the (ancient) university's traditional Christian wording at the graduation ceremony.

I'm not convinced that you would have to get rid of nativity plays, they could easily be part if the religious education provision with a "some people believe" at the beginning.

NonnoMum there's no need to ban nativity plays. I'm an atheist and don't have a problem with them. After all most plays are based on works of fiction. As long as no one uses it as an excuse to preach their personal beliefs.

In fact it could mean more chances to have a nativity play. Do they allow them now in Muslim or Jewish schools? I suspect not.

I'm not convinced that nativity plays would be allowed. Starting every sentence with a caveat would be pretty tiresome. Or maybe they could hang a big 'some people believe.... banner over the stable

If you assume that we could find a way to continue with nativity plays, would you be in favour of secularising state schools, Johnny?

In theory breathe, I would like schools to be secular. It's the actuality that concerns me.

What is it about the actuality of secularism that bothers you? Maybe we could reassure you?

"fwiw I would like all schools to cater for children of all faiths. "

So you are in fact in favour of secular education Johnny but decided it would be wise to suggest that most other people holding that view do so because of their bigotry?

Very, very good point about the role of faith in Universities. I could see a model where each area has a roving chaplaincy team to operate within schools as pupils need them. And then we can abolish the 'broadly Christian' assemblies that most schools (especially secondaries) mostly ignore anyway.

The main thing that needs to be done relates to admission criteria - if you're a state school of any kind, you should not be allowed to select on faith criteria. Ever. At all. If you want to select on faith criteria, go private.

For starters in the States, the secular education system drives people to iffy private schools like the one linked to earlier and to home education (which is a different beast in America than here).

The status quo here is imperfect and the admissions situation is insupportable, but I'm not at all sure that enforced secularisation is the way to go.

Countess makes a good point about multi-faith chaplaincies in universities. Maybe that's a happier medium?

I stumbled across this earlier, which sums up my feelings on nativity plays etc. I think she's an MNer actually.

AFAIC we should be saying to faith schools you have "x" number of years to make the transition to fund those schools you wish to remain as faith schools yourself. Otherwise they remain state funded and become secular.

One of the reasons we enjoy private education for our daughter is because we did not agree with having to send out child to a faith school when we have no faith.

If you dont like faith schools vote with your feet, instead of trying to airbrush faith out of society. Im so tired of the atheist militant agenda that is so prevalent on mumsnets. I find it discriminatory and quite worrying.

x-posts with the whole world there!

I suggested nothing of the sort, OP. I suggested that some peoples' opinions are based on prejudice and bigotry. Some.

I would no more want their views dictating education policy than I would the Duggars.

Hang on- do people actually know what "secular" means?

What an odd thing to say hakuna. Why 'militant'? Why 'agenda'?

Ha, militant atheists, persecuting the religious...we're well known for it

Damn those logical, rational militants, like flies on shit they are

Because there are some many threads on mumsnet similar to this. I find them intolerant as it is always leads to a bashing of Christianity or faith generally. The intolerance on here in relation to people who have faith including their choices such as sending their children to faith schools needs to be looked at. People on here are pretending that what they dont like is that faith schools are state funded when in actuality their problem is the idea of faith schools.