To think it is time to secularise all state-funded education?

[fideline]

Just that really.

I am just so lacking in understanding, it seems.

kim147 and CorusKate you make some good points about the institutional power of the Church of England as the established church. But to what extent do individual Christians actually wield that institutional power? There is a difference between the institution and the people within it, isn't there?

And so, even accepting your criticisms of the powerful influence of the established church, and of the cultural history of the society we live in, does that mean that it thus ok to be nasty to individual Christians, to take out your anger and frustration on them as individual human beings?

Christians in this country (by the way, kim your link relates to the US, doesn't it, it would be good to be open about that) are not persecuted as they are in some places in the world. They are not legally discriminated against. Some groups in society do indeed have it a lot worse. I wouldn't argue against any of that. But does that make it ok to be rude to Christians?

Niminy- I was hoping that you would give some examples of the bullying and anti Christian sentiments you say have been posted on here- I'm still hoping to see them. Because without actual evidence your posts do looked bit like special pleading. You have made serious accusations, I think you should either back them up or withdraw them.

"But does that make it ok to be rude to Christians?"

Niminy Nobody was being rude to Christians. I skimmed right back through the thread. I am a church-goer. I am sure I would have noticed anti-church bigotry. Or is it just that, in your opinion, anyone proposing secular education, must, by definition, be rabidly anti-religion?

johnny showed up and alleged that there had been bigotry. Several of us asked where/what/who and didn't get an answer, then you popped up making passive aggressive allegations that we were being aggressive and didn't realise it.

Your line of argument has seemed confused each time you have appeared on the thread but when you are asked perfectly civil questions about your position, you seem to overreact.

Please rewind and tell us what bigotry Christians have supposedly faced on this thread.

The story kim linked to is a pretty good argument against the secularisation of state schooling, surely?

fide - yes I showed up and posted a couple of times. I didn't realise that obliged me to engage in a lengthy, Moral Maze style debate with you as the chair

I didn't accuse anyone of being aggressive btw, nor did I accuse anyone on this thread of bigotry. But now you mention it...

You're not obliged to do anything Johnny but if you want you to be taken seriously it helps if you are prepared to back up your assertions.

You said;

"I'm an atheist, but I dislike the tone of many posts that I read on threads like this. They don't sit easy with me and some, ironically given some of their objections to religion, are just plain bigoted."

Which very much reads like accusations of bigotry.

Also a Christian.

I didn't notice any anti-Christian comments except possibly the usual antitheist "bearded dude in the sky", "fairy stories" etc which is a little rude but tbh just makes me eye roll in this kind of debate.

The existence or not of God, and the rightness or not of Christianity, are moot in the debate at hand.

Have the people who throw accusations of bullying and aggression and bigotry around ever considered how colossally arrogant it is to expect non Christians to just accept that their children are expected to toe the Christian line at school? That it is impossible to fully access a state funded provision (education) without being at least a nominal Christian? That the only way to avoid this is to make your child conspicuous-the glib "Oh, you can always withdraw them" line. Why on earth should I? Christians have the other 18 hours of the day to teach their children to pray and to practise their faith...why do they need to do it during the school day too?

Countess, that's the kind of thing I mean. I read comments along those lines often on threads like these (underlined for Paxo for the OP's benefit) and I don't feel comfortable with it. Faith being a choice (although I'd question that a little), unlike sexuality or ethnicity, doesn't make ridicule ok.

If you didn't mean 'threads like these' to include this thread then why post here about bigotry on "threads like these" ?!

It is a bit thin-skinned to label 'bearded dude in sky' and 'fairy stories' as bigotry, I think.

CountessofRule and Martorana I think you have both exemplified the problem always with this type of debate.

I am guessing that for a Christian or indeed any other person of any faith their faith is at the core of their being. It informs the way they carry out their daily living and education is part of this.

However as an atheist I find the notion of faith incomprehensible. To me it is no different from fairy stories. I dont believe in the tooth fairy, father christmas or any deity. I dont want my children to spend any part of their day being told to worship a deity or that father christmas and the tooth fairy exist. It is all one to me.

The difficulty is that if I say that I risk being called rude because I dont accord the deity an element of respect. How can I if the deity is no more real to me than father christmas or the tooth fairy? I can be polite about another person's faith. I nod and smile when people have spoken about their faith to me but in truth it just sounds ridiculous to me, like an adult continuing to believe in the tooth fairy or father christmas.

But Johnny- nobody has said anything like that in this thread which is about faith based selection for state schools. So why bring it up? It doesn't half shut down discussion if you think that people are going to feel bullied if you say you don't think it's a good idea that state education should be dependent on parental beliefs......

And I have yet the hear a supporter of religion in schools respect my right not to have my children taught how to practise a faith that we do not! as a family, follow. Or to be told that God is real by a trusted teacher. Christians have 18 hours in 24 to teach their children anything they want. All I am asking is 6 hours where children are taught about all beliefs and none- and are not expected to do religion, only learn about it.
Frankly, I just don't see how anybody who gives it a moment's thought could disagree with that position. And most people, when actually shown how it works, find faith based school admissions inequitable- several people have changed their views on this very thread......

But the problem, Martorana, is that for people of faith, they cannot see that you would not practice that faith. Faith is something people have and are of rather than than something they do.

I can understand that people of faith may feel that they need to practice their faith they must understand that making others practice that faith is not a right. As you say, to do so is arrogance.

Philosophy aside, what is the financial arrangement between schools and the Churches,?

Voluntary aided- church contributes buildings and 10%. Voluntary controlled buildings only. No building maintainance p in either case. (Or possibly the other way round)

I don't want to live somewhere that bans veils in state schools, say. Because that's the kind of thing you're heading towards when insisting on keeping religion out of education.

Have you visited a university?

OK some do have the odd prayer but for the most part they are secular. They seem to do OK.

Or maybe an FE college? Have a look around your local one, lots of learning going on.

Who is the best judge of what it feels like to be in the receiving end of homophobia or racism? Not straight or white people, but those on the receiving end.

Wow, just wow. You do realise just how ignorant that is? Actually you probably don't. Anyone can be racist, you don't have to be white.

And even when racist policies are for the 'benefit' of one group they can affect others.

My nice 100% white girls' school insisted on a certain amount of flesh on show as part of our uniform. That was why, in an area with a significant Muslim/Asian population my school was 100% white.

I have walked through snow with bare legs because of a racist policy, it was not intended to harm me, but it was not in my best interests. I also missed out on not being part of a more diverse cohort.

But to you Mugabe is a victim and white farmers being beaten and their property burned have no idea what racism is.

I find the wearing of veils insulting to my daughters. It denies their humanity. To me.