to CELEBRATE the first FGM prosecutions!

[Sallyingforth]

Breaking news on BBC. Hope they send them down for a long sentence as an example to others.

Many forms of FGM are terrible, but there are grey areas like genital piercing. Clearly none should be performed on children.

Some posters have stated they want mandatory screening. I am not sure they have thought this through. Not all FGM is visually external, and you could not legitimately target some British citizens and not others. Hence this would mean all girls in primary schools having to be forcibly vaginally examined. That sounds pretty abusive to me.

It is so hard to get you head around, but they are often done in the belief that it is in the best interests of the girls. People agree because they think their girls will be rejected from the community without cutting. It is often an act linked to the love of their children. The law alone can't change this.

But IMO prosecutions of parents/partners won't help, and could actually harm children's welfare. If you genuinely believe that your daughter will have a terrible life without being cut, then you will prioritize that. This could mean withdrawing children from education and from the eyes of health professionals to keep it secret. Indeed, one of the reasons the law has not worked so far is that children love their families and do not want them to be prosecuted.

We will not stop FGM unless we change the the meaning it holds for certain communities, regardless of the law.

Clearly we need to find and prosecute all cutters who operate in the UK. But we also need to work with communities so accept girls who have not been cut. This is the only way to eliminate the practice.

Thanks. I am still trying to find out what he allegedly did. "THE DOCTOR PERFORMED REPAIR OF EXISTING FGM, RETURNING IT TO THE STATE IT WAS IN BEFORE SHE GAVE BIRTH, THEREBY PERFORMING FGM HIMSELF. WHAT HE SHOULD HAVE DONE IS DO A COSMETIC REPAIR WHICH WOULD REMOVE THE SEAL OR FLAP OF TISSUE COVERING THE WHOLE AREA. DOING THIS IT IS SOMETIMES POSSIBLE TO RECREATE LABIA AND THE OPENING TO THE VAGINA IS UNRESTRICTED."
That's helpful.
I am no apologist for FGM. I just think we could have picked a better test case. So after she gave birth there was a large flap of skin unlike with most women who have not had FGM because of what had been done to her as a child. Something has to be done with that flap presumably in those women. Instead of removing that flap or tissue (which actually is quite a drastic thing to do without a woman's consent by the way - removing bits of her skin) he sewed it back over to make her hole presumably big enough for vaginal sex but not as large as it might have been after say a standard episitomy after a birth?

What doctor would be happy to do this? I assume it was done without consultation. To re-mutilate this poor woman is just dreadful - the pain and trauma she must have gone through.

Wasn't there a case not that long ago when a little girl died after a FGM in Egypt? The case didn't get a load of coverage here, but I suspect noone was prosecuted there. The parents were amazed she died.

All the time doctors are delivering women who have had FMG and here the husband apparently asked for it and secondly we don't know if the woman did. So it is not a case likely to be won by the CPS but I don't know the facts and I may be utterly wrong.

The question is what did he do? Are they saying he should have cut off her loose skin flap without her consent rather than sewing it back on so it did not hang down? Doctors stitch us up after birth every day of the week so it must be a case about what form of stitching is allowed on a woman who h as had FMG. This is nothing like cutting a little girl who is too young to consent.

jane I honestly despair I really do.

You have been explained to many times by pp. please stop boiling this down to him just repairing and linking it to a episiotomy . It's really not.

The fact that the cps have now chosen to act means their must be at least some hard evidence he has broke the law.

It doesn't matter if he husband or woman asked for it. Its still illegal.

It's nothing to do with what form of stitching is allowed - why are you minimising this? I really don't know what your agenda is?

Re- Infibulation is illegal too.

Many, many sensible and well-thought out posts on this thread but some may give an insight into why there is often a fear of discussing this issue by the communities it affects.

I'm paraphrasing many posts here but 'these evil, sick, barbaric people deserve life sentences or live by our rules in our country or go back to where they come from' is not likely to prompt an open dialogue.

The BNP and the EDL often use FGM in their propaganda and this is pretty much what they say too.

I wonder if HV follow up with such women? Cases I have read in the papers seem to suggest that british girls being cut are done so when they go to visit relatives and it is done, seemingly, against the wishes of the mothers.

Do the HVs warn mothers of girls that, no matter what/who your family are, there is a risk that this will happen to their girls?

Teachers nowadays seem to look out for girls who may be getting sent abroad for 'arranged' marriages - so girls who drop off the radar, go on 'holiday' and don't come back, or come back married etc. Are they also looking for the younger girls who go 'home for a holiday' and come back... traumatised, in pain, shyer, anxious? Are they questioning?

I really don't know why I'm bothering but one last try.

JANE If you bother to look at the link I made on page 8, look at the very graphic pictures and diagrams and READ the information, you will be able to quite clearly find out what reinfibulation is and what should be done after a birth. There is NO COMPARISON with the kind of episiotomy used in women without FGM. I understand many women are ignorant about their own anatomy but your persistence in the face of repeated explanations and links to visual explanations defies belief.

Are there any midwives or doctors reading this who can explain how giving birth is achieved after FGM ?

I am glad the prosecution has happened.
We need to stop the genital assault on boys too however.

I assume in this case the midwives would have noted on the mums file about her state? Could she have got to 9 months without any exam? Was she not consulted before and given any options?

I'm sure it will all come out in the case, and hopefully bring this pratice (more) out into the open.

Oh traffic....I feel for you!. Your posts have been really informative for a lot of people xx

why do the 'cutters' think it is a good thing to do? Just don't understand.

Why would you want to do that to anyone against their wishes.

Yes I think we need zero tolerance of this but how do you enforce it is another matter.

*bochead Fri 21-Mar-14 15:20:07
I'm not buying the "can't bring a prosecution cos the issue is oh so complex line" from the establishment at all.

At the moment I can only conclude that our entire current legal, political , and social establishment to protect children should be labelled "not fit for purpose" if it is truly "too complex an issue to obtain successful prosecutions".

This is a nation that locks people up without trial under the anti-terrorism laws, and that regularly removes children from loving homes because they might be "at risk of future emotional abuse".

Any child who isn't seen by any sort of medical professional for longer than 18 months brings up red flags for this dumb layman. If you consider the demands of the school attendance Nazi's, the current vaccination schedules, normal childhood illnesses and accidents, it's gotta be a VERY rare child who genuinely has no cause to ever see even the practice nurse.

SS can also order a medical exam at any time without having to give any reasons whatsoever to the parent. How hard would it be to include a quick check for this - it's a physical mutilation, so obvious to spot by any trained professional with a cursory glance as part of the normal childhood height/weight checks that medics seem so fond of doing at the drop of a hat.

Why are younger siblings knowingly being left in the homes where this is KNOWN to have occurred to the eldest girl? Why are SS not warning and monitoring EVERY family where the mother is FGM that in this country the practice is considered abhorrent and illegal and if practiced will result in the immediate removal on a permanent basis of ALL that couple's children including the boys?

Why are parents of these girls not immediately prosecuted with torture, sexual assault, and grievous bodily harm and sentenced accordingly. If you have parental responsibility and this is done then you have ALLOWED the worst kind of child abuse to occur, even if you didn't wield the scalpel.

Stopping this being common practice in certain communities is very simple if we only had the will. (I accept there will always be one or two sneaky people who circumvent any law we write).*

I will continue to read, but this post is just... It sums it up so much. I'm sick of the excuse, the protests of racism/bigotry (often by the ignorant)

This isn't some game of who can with being the most Politically Correct (Talking government, not MN posters!)
We're talking about extreme torture, and in many cases the death of children because they are considered unworthy being born the way they are.

I'm thrilled with this prosecution. I hope the sentence is as harsh as possible. This needs to be shouted out loud. I haven't heard anything in RL, but I hope soon their is an uproar. I think educating my friends -and hopefully teachers get a chance to education their students- of just how sick this is will help enormously. Not understanding that this is torture seems (at least IMO) to be a problem.

People need to know how evil this is. Sometimes, not always, but sometimes shame works as a deterrent.

Its 'tradition'. Doing it for 'your own good'. Odd that it seems to be women who do the mutilation - don't they remember when it was done to them (and I bet they vowed at the time that they would never let their daughters be cut).

how do women even have sex after this? apologise if missed as have tried to read the whole thread but may have missed.

I can't agree with a HCP looking at all primary school aged girls, as a mum of dds this would be totally unacceptable to me.

however there is lots of evidence that tells us where children are lightly to be cut including Jewish boys and Somali girls.

we do need to stop pussyfooting around this and stop worrying about culture, practise and custom and start monitoring and prosecuting.

community leaders need to understand their responsibilities. it should be a crime not to report suspected child abuse anywhere anyway IMO. if we changed that law so everyone was held responsible,if they knew about abuse and didn't report it, maybe that would help.

massive long sentances for cutters and those procuring them too would help I think.

there's been far too many apologists around for cutting boys and dirks for far too long. time t

time to get tough.

ConferencePear and TheBody I'm a midwife. If you scroll back you will see a number of my posts explaining what happens in order to have sex and give birth. If you are not entirely sure of the anatomy involved, go to the NHS choices webpage I linked to and click on the Royal College of Nursing's information pack.

nicename Midwives can ask women if they have had FGM in a sensitive manner but some will lie, minimize the extent or prevaricate due to shame and embarrassment. If the woman has had a normal pregnancy there would be no reason for an examination and it might only be found in advanced labour. If it is known antenatally the women are offered counseling and referral to specialized midwives and usually female doctors, often from similar backgrounds, who can encourage them and their families to consent to reversal surgery. But informed consent is required - if they refuse there's nothing we can do but deal with the situation in labour.

It's a terrible test case, with all sorts of ethical ifs and buts, they should have gone for something simpler for a first one.

I do also worry if FGM is banned on the NHS it will just go backstreet rather than stop.

traffic thanks will look. I was a district nursing sister in the 80s but never came across fgm as mainly worked in white and Asian dominated areas and I don't think it was a problem here in the UK then but of course who knows what goes on behind closed doors.

so very glad this issue is now being discussed.

Lazy FGM is already banned by the NHS because it's illegal - surely?

Lazyjaney It is not clear the extent of what this doctor has done but the allegation is that he reinstated existing FGM. There are no ethical ifs or buts. FGM is illegal in the UK therefore already banned in the NHS and any doctor practicing in the UK knows this. It's not a judgement call for the doctor to decide. It is ILLEGAL and if he is found to have done this he will probably be struck off the register and be barred from practicing as a doctor.

Odd that it seems to be women who do the mutilation - don't they remember when it was done to them (and I bet they vowed at the time that they would never let their daughters be cut)

One of the key issues is that many women (and men) do not see the procedure as mutilation, it is normal to them.

I struggle to get my head round this, but it is the case.

Don't forget that removing the clitoris used to be a treatment for female promiscuity in the UK.

I didn't know that we did that Cream Teas. When was this occurring?