to CELEBRATE the first FGM prosecutions!

[Sallyingforth]

Breaking news on BBC. Hope they send them down for a long sentence as an example to others.

creamteas - if you consider the definitions of FGM you posted then it is impossible to repair a clitoridectomy, the clitoris is missing, it can't be replaced so that's that definition ruled out.
The second category, excision. If he was repairing the damage caused by excision of the clitoris and labia then that would come under cosmetic repair and a medical benefit and would not be considered FGM.
In the fourth category, any treatment of pricking/scraping etc would be considered as a medical benefit again. Repeating the process would be FGM.
Which leaves the repair of infibulation which I have already described. There is no medical reason to repair or return infibulation to it's pre birth state.

We do not know whether or not the woman gave permission for replacing the FGM. It's unlikely the consent form would have specifically included it.
Since the FGM would have needed removal for the birth, the consent form very likely said that some reconstruction was needed afterwards.
From the description of the second man's charge (presumably the husband) it is likely that he insisted the surgeon included the FGM replacement as part of the reconstruction.

Sally, the woman would not be able to consent to "replacement" of the FGM on a consent form as that is illegal. She may have asked for it but it's still illegal.Yes, a consent form may have stated reconstruction would be required but any doctor practicing obs and gynae in the UK will be aware that REinfibulation is illegal. Pressure from anyone else should be immaterial.

Agreed, trafficwarden.
I doubt that the woman was fully aware what was going to happen. In any case, neither of the two men can escape responsibility for their alleged actions.

Ok, what charities can we donate to? Is there an awareness link that we can spread on FB, instead of these daft, no-make up "selfies"? I would love to post a text on my FB showing a donation to an obvious FGM cause.

I wish there was an edit button!

I should have said any doctor ........... would be aware that REinfibulation or carrying out any harmful pricking/piercing etc is illegal.
It's the causing harm or non maleficence that is at issue. Repairing damage is beneficial, repairing FGM (of whichever sort) by returning it to the pre birth state is harmful and that is what is considered against the law.
Creamteas, I take on board the assertion that we don't know what type of FGM this woman had but is my explanation making sense? Given that this is the first prosecution to get to this stage and the DPS will want to make it worthwhile? I previously concentrated on reinfibulation because a particular poster seemed unable to differentiate between that and repair of a mediolateral episiotomy.

Would an obs surgeon have the skill to be able to undertake a legal reconstruction, or would he have to call upon a [plastic surgeon to make the repair?

What if a plastic surgeon was not available? Do you just leave the woman in this state?

I am interested to know as, if specialist plastic surgery is required, that's something that needs to be factored in to the 24/7 services available in maternity hospitals.

Bunty yes, try Daughters of Eve or Forward UK.

Obstetricians can and do perform deinfibulation. In my experience plastic surgeons are not involved but there may be some areas where their expertise is enlisted. I'm going to try some links. Bear with me, this is a first!

www.nhs.uk/conditions/female-genital-mutilation/Pages/Introduction.aspx

There are good links on this webpage. The RCN one has clear diagrams and the multidisciplinary one gives lots of information.

bunty [www.desertflowerfoundation.org here]

Li

Link fail

Yes I found the desertflower foundation web page very good. They are building clinics for repairing and holistic therapys and sponsoring mothers not to let their girls go through this.

'Education is key but also zero tolerance too'.

The reason it continues, is because no one has bothered to enforce the law. The perpetrators think we are happy to turn a blind eye when the reality is that most of us can hardly believe such a barbaric practice even exists.

I remember hearing about it for the first time on an episode of Casualty donkeys years ago and I think the storyline was that the daughter died - the mother and grandmother had done it against the express wishes of the 'more westernised' father.

If you choose to make a life for yourself in a Western Liberal democracy because for some reason that is preferable to your country/culture of birth, then some 'responsibilities' accompany the 'rights' the democratic country offers.
One of the main responsibilities is not to break the law. No need to counter-argue what about male circumcision argument as I would make that illegal too.
Nobody should be lopping bits off their private parts..end of.

Surely MI5 if it had the will, could identify regular 'cutters' within communities?

'People that have actually worked within these communities all say the same thing that is being said here: Education and change from within is the only way to stop it.'

I think these pc 'workers' have been given long enough to improve the situation don't you? Time to try a zero tolerance 'we don't do that here' approach methinks.

Quote 'I posted the website on my facebook and got next to nothing in response , yet some one posting what they were baking for tea had many 'likes' . This needs to more publicised, spoken about every day, in our primary schools,In well women clinics.'

Cigarettesandsmirnoff - I know I think it is quite a difficult subject to discuss. I posted a link to to the 4,000 cases in London hospitals and only one male I was at Uni with donkeys years ago acknowledged it. Most of my fb friends are female - not a single one acknowledged it.

no one likes to confront evil unless they absolutely have to.

we have to.

"really what forms of FGM are the removal of skin even the least evasive (and not often performed) is removal of part of the clitoris "

That's not true. There are less invasive forms than that.

Among SE Asian Muslims (in Indonesia, Malaysia, southern Thailand), the procedure varies, but it is as I understand it never as extensive as clitoral removal. In some areas it is merely ceremonial.

You can read a description of the procedure here:

books.google.co.uk/books?id=QT3Tq6FfG0cC&pg=PA174

And it's not rare, in Indonesia it's something like 90% of women have had this done.

www.thejakartaglobe.com/news/indonesia-ignores-un-ban-on-female-circumcision-denies-mutilation/

It's generally not, as performed there, more harmful than MGM.

Which is not an endorsement of either procedure, but I do think there needs to be some understanding - a majority of American boy babies are circumcised, and that's unjustifiable.

Are you being unreasonable? NO! We should all be singing from the roof tops that this is the beginning of the the end of this (only the very beginning) I also don't agree with male circumcision this too should be banned. I will be shouted at and called racist but hey this is a free country, imagine if your local vicar in leafy Surrey started FGM? Don' shout tradition..so was bear and badger baiting that is banned too. I find it staggering it has taken this long to bring the first case at all. It is not illegal to have battery chickens and pigs in sow stalls but we have only just got on to seeking out the evil people that commit FGM? Un frigging believable.

Someone asked 'what charities can we donate too'........we already donate it is call tax and the full weight of the British government should be put behind getting this stopped. This is child abuse that makes Jimmy Saville like someone you would leave your daughter with. This is the single most important cultural issue in this country that needs to be driven out. It makes me so angry that only now in 2014..it comes to court should have been 1514 it was stopped.

ukatlast HURRAH spot on....'we don't do that here' zero tolerance.........

Should have said NOW illegal to have battery chickens etc....

ukatlast it is a very difficult subject to talk about. when I broached it with my dp, he was in disgust, as in "urgh, why are you even looking at it" ?

I don't know if it's ignorance is bliss or if it's not in my 'garden, I'm not interested ' or worse, if it's not happening to white British girls - not interested. I'm white British by the way.

I think it would be different if it was white British girls or if it was a mans whole penis shaft cut off.

I maybe massively out if order for saying that , I apologise if so had four hours sleep with dd

Regarding charities, our tax system will not help pay for the reconstruction surgery and holistic therapy clinics that are available or being built OR sponsoring a child, so that she can be monitored, given education and to be able to have a choice of husband. Here

this is better

Good point about reconstruction fags and vodka above, my point was the full weight of tax payers should be on prevention... I am going to be shoot down here but here goes....'if half as much time was spent on preventing FGM than is currently being spent on a trials for someone who may or may not have pinched someone's bottom 40 years ago' then we would be in a happier situation -before you shoot me. I say that to make a point BOTH that is BOTH are important but some things are (to my mind) more important than others and chopping bits of people in 2014 is not acceptable at any level.