Commitment-phobic men are often the reason that women 'delay' starting a family

[Petal02]

A lovely friend of mine is in bits because her latest relationship has broken down. She is 41, would love to settle down and start a family, but has been unfortunate to have a string of boyfriends who didn't know what they wanted, or wanted to keep their options open, or didn't want children now but might have wanted them in the future. You get the picture.

She was 'told off' by her GP about 6 months ago (when she mentioned the subject of conception) for 'hanging around too much and not getting on with it.'

Yet you read so much about women who allegedly decide to wait til their 40s before starting a family; I suspect some of them would have started far earlier if only there weren't so many idiotic men about.

Sorry, just wanted to offload. Makes me very sad.

Avery - "I can only assume it's because they actually don't want children and have been pressurized into it by their partners."

I think that is it. I have seen some really heart rending threads on here in recent months. The woman moves in with a guy, typically after university, they share rent and bills, like students.

He stays in student mode and never really grows up but her body clock is ticking and she has grown up and wants a child. He agrees but makes no commitment and she carries on paying 50% of household costs until she has to take maternity leave then she struggles on paying half rent out of her savings. She goes back to work and still paying 50% of household costs plus childcare costs plus everything for the baby and he pays nothing towards the child. He goes mad with her when she raises the issue because he is still out spending like a single bloke and she is so desperate for money she cant afford to buy herself a coat for next winter.

Honestly, the women in these relationships have got into the habit of doing the 'strong independent woman' thing and paying their own way because that is what they have always done. The men meanwhile are doing the 'single man with a live in girlfriend but no commitment thing'.

I think you are looking at this wrong AveryJessup.

It's not an odd attitude to have if someone doesn't want children for financial reasons.

Their reasons are their reasons and nothing odd about it at all.

Men deciding not to have children and controlling their reproduction for whatever reason is a good thing.

If a woman is with a man who makes it very clear he doesn't want marriage/children, then clearly there's no sense in hanging around. However when the man HASN'T said that; if he's suggested he may like a family at some point in the future (fair enough) or you've had the "lets see how things go" conversation (also fair enough) - what time limit do you apply? I agree with the poster who said, earlier in the thread, that if there's no hint of commitment within 18 months, then there's probably never likely to be. But who could blame the woman who gives it an extra six months, if they're happy together? And then do you give it another six after that?

To reiterate: if he's made it clear he doesn't want what you want, then you should cut your losses. But if he hasn't?????? If you're 26 then by all means see where you are this time next year. However I bet it all looks a little different at 36, when even if you did cut your losses, you've got to start all over again - and your success isn't guaranteed.

Very, very sad.

The problem often seems to be that a man says he does want children, but we've only been together two years, or I want to do xyz first, I want to have a senior role at work first, or be earning a certain amount, I want us to have paid off a certain amount of the mortgage, or own my car outright, I want us to be able to travel a bit more as a couple first...

None of which is unreasonable. And a lot of it is very sensible, who can argue with that. But it's very easy for the years to go by and him still be saying not yet, and then the woman realises she is nearing 40 and that the goalposts have kept moving and that not yet, might in fact mean never.

Morebeta agree totally with your post about men who still expect to live in a 'student house share' financial model' even if they have a child with their partner.

My first husband.earnt a lot more than me, ok so we didn't have children, but he expected a 50/50 split on all bills. I often used to borrow petrol money from my Dad (who was horrified) and on the odd occasion when my husband 'kindly' lent me money, it all went on a tab, to be settled next payday. There was no way I could have afforded a baby, even if I'd wanted one. He would have expected my full 50% contribution no matter what, and once I'd paid that I could never have afforded child care. And stopping work or reducing my hours wouldn't have been possible because it would have reduced my income. And I couldn't borrow off my Dad forever.

I used to assume all couples lived like that, til I met my new husband and we pool our finances.

Excellent post Freakoid

My brother did this to my STBX S-i-l - also one of my best friends still. He was adamant he never ever wanted DCs and she did. But they were childhood sweethearts and she loved the bones of him and so sacrificed her chance of ever having any. He never ever swayed from his views and they threw themselves into their careers and had lots of childfree/carefree holidays every year etc. When she was 44 he left her for a younger woman at work and they now live in the country and have become foster parents for babies to teens and he has really thrown himself into it and loves it. She is a tad put out , shall we say !

I think the idea of women raising kids with a mutual support network of other mums and men as peripheral is quite a good one, actually. At least, as one of several options for parenthood.
There are plenty of men who do want to be fathers and are willing to do their fair share of childcare and domestic work, so heteromonogamy is an option for some, but the idea that it's the best or only one is not really doing anyone any favours. Women find themselves having children with lazy, selfish or actually abusive men because they believe it's better than being a Single Mum, when it's better to be a single mum than have an unsatisfactory man in the house making everyone miserable.

I think that there are quite a lot of men with the mindset MoreBeta describes - it's just that they rarely share these views with any woman unless they see her as 100% one-of-the-lads. It's kind of a siege mentality in some solvent men, seeing themselves as under attack and it focusses not around having to pay for their children - which most men would see as fair enough, (except for the real hardcore, "you wanted it, you pay for it" bastards) but on alimony for a wife who has sacrificed her career. It's normally based on pure ill-informed prejudice that they'll "lose everything" if they get married.

The sad thing is that these are indeed solvent, responsible blokes - too many of the guys who are less paranoid about fatherhood are secretly motivated by the confidence that they can always walk away.

YANBU. This has happened to me and it's nearly broken me if I am honest.

I had four relationships between 25-35 which followed similar patterns. Started off well, had serious discussions upfront and established we wanted the same things longer-term (I was always honest that I was looking for commitment and to start a family with the right person), then after eighteen months or so (after the fun dates and holidays and general honeymoon period) I pushed for more commitment and didn't get it. Different situations, same end result. One ex was my best friend, we always got on brilliantly, I supported him in establishing his career which often meant he spent weeks abroad away from me. After over three years together he called me one night from work (abroad) to say he had fallen out of love with me (I was devastated).

Took me two years to meet someone new. By which time I was early thirties. Moved in together, were planning to ttc when I found out he had another girlfriend who he met a year into our relationship. This left me at nearly 35, single and childless. And I had really really tried to meet someone nice and have a family. I had a good job, lovely family, lots of friends, was never pushy or pressuring. I never went for 'bad boys'. But I ended up in a very difficult position :(

It's not always as simple as shipping out at eighteen months on the dot and taking responsibility for your choices. In my experience luck counts for something, and men can be real shits :)

As it happens, at 35 I had booked an appointment with London Women's Clinic to go down the donor route when I met DP. We have been together for a year and a half and we"re ttc. I am 37 this year and thank my lucky stars I met DP. I don't take anything for granted though.

I really feel for your friend OP.

Sorry that should say between 21-35!

ImAThrillseeker - your post is really spot on.

The siege mentality is what comes through in the conversations I have had. Jokey comments like 'don't get her up the duff or she'll have half your money through the CSA'.

Young blokes in particular have heard this sort of comment so often. Not all blokes think like this of course but its a noticeable underlying social trend or backlash.

In reality though I think it really is in many ways just another version of that age old option blokes have always had like you say:

"....secretly motivated by the confidence that they can always walk away."

They cant do it quite like the old days because of CSA and the divorce laws but you can still 'walk away' if you can string the woman along and keep very careful control of your fertility.

I met the father of my dc when I was about 32. I told him I did not want a relationship with him as I wanted dc and he already had dc.
He said he would consider dc with me if it was going well. I told him I would wait 18 months no longer.

So I was totally upfront. I said I would totally understand if he did not want dc and therefore want out.

in the end we had dc which he then turned round anytime he wanted out of doing something and said he didn't want them.

Previous significant partner of ten years kept promising we would have kids next year. I think he actually believed it too.

so despite being totally no bones about it upfront I still got messed about.

Fast forward to recent bf, 40 odd no kids who thought he might eventually talk me into more kids or accidentally end up with them. I made it absolutely clear I was not going down that road from the outset. He was also a total peter pan man. Still staying up all night gaming and making pitiful excuses for not getting his life together. Yet he seemed to think that some day he would miraculously turn into a brilliant responsible dad.

I think a lot of blokes are waiting to grow up without making any effort to actually do any growing or changing. Some of them when they do have kids either accidentally or deliberately do step up and make great dads and some stay the same feckless men children they were before and having watched many of my male friends become parents I find it almost impossible to predict which ones will come good and who will crumble under the pressure. My female friends otoh just accept that when you have kids however you have kids you just knuckle down and get on with it. (They may be unusual but I doubt it).

It is often said that the mistake women make is expecting to have it all but I think some men also think they will have all of, more than one sexual partner if not lots, fulfilling longterm rs with shared finances yet an unequal share of housework, freedom, holidays, a career, an eternal low responsibility teenager like lifestyle, the don't have to do housework and they don't have to be the breadwinner either and then kids that they will somehow be brilliant with but that they can walk away from if it all goes tits and then see if and when it suits them whilst claiming of course my kids are my world (from Friday evening to Sunday EOW).

Yes it may be true that kids are a massuve financial commitment for the nrp but they generally end up being a far larger financial commitment for the rp, hardly a meal ticket.

Justice, that is spot on.

Sadly.

With callani, LRD and Tilly. But I perhaps feel a bit more stern towards the women. If a woman would like children, she needs to address the topic, rather than avoid it because she's afraid of being seen as a 'bunny boiler' or not being 'one of the lads'. Feminism should allow her to talk about what she would like out of life, to listen to what her prospective partner says about what they would like, and to act accordingly. Women in my view often act for approval, rather than for authenticity. I certainly had cries of disbelief from all my friends when I told them I'd discussed children with my now dh on our second date, despite the fact that I'd been through an unbelievably painful breakup with my first husband because he didn't want children and I did. I thought, and still think, that for once I was behaving sensibly, and I have ds (and dh) probably as a direct result.

patienceisvirtuous I'm really chuffed that you've now met the right man. I hope you conceive soon and have a happy, healthy baby! :)

I think it's the woman's responsibility. If the man won't commit / agree to have children she should have walked away. After 35 should be saying - I am ready to have kids, if you have any hesitation about having them quickly you are not right for me.

joanofarchitrave - I agree with you. I also discussed wanting children on my second date with with my now DH. I was only in my early twenties at the time (which seems young now!) but I knew that I wanted my first child while I was fairly young, that I wanted more than one, expected to get married, to be married to someone who was very family-orientated, all that kind of thing.

The conversation was easy & honest and we established that we both had similar expectations for our lives and relationships. 10 years on, we are married with four DC.

I'd had serious boyfriends and less serious boyfriends before, dated different types of men & by the time I met DH I knew what I was looking for. If DH had been a man who had said he didn't want a serious relationship, or who had been reluctant to talk about the future, I just wouldn't have seen him again as I'd have known we were looking for different things or were at different stages in our lives.

I'm always confused when I hear of people in serious relationships who haven't talked about what they really want. My experience of falling in love, with someone who is in love with you, is that you can talk to them about anything & everything without feeling silly or worrying about what they will think. If you have to hold back then it isn't really love is it?

Like other posters dh and I had discussed having children and the amount we wanted within first couple of weeks of meeting at age 18. We both knew we wanted the same things then.

I think the only reason I don't feel 'stern' exactly, is because I do think it's hard when you're there in the middle of it - especially if you're not in a context where you have other women around you telling you it's ok to talk about this stuff.

I really notice this with my non-MN mates, actually. If I have a rocky patch with my DH about pretty much anything, my MNer mates will mostly take the line 'well, you want x, x is a reasonable thing to want, you must say this until he understands where you're coming from'. My non-MNer mates don't do that. And I've had a few raised eyebrows with '... so he knew you wanted children before you got married?! You were brave' or 'well, of course, women always want babies and men have to put up with it!'

People don't seem to see there's something fundamentally wrong with sending women the message that it's 1) odd, and potentially threatening to a relationship, to admit to wanting children and 2) it's perfectly normal to expect someone to have a baby they do not actually want.

Those expectations are something I feel rather more than 'stern' about, but I find it hard to feel 'stern' to specific women (if that makes sense?).

I agree that in 2014, we should be able to state what we want. But society still seems to suggest that a woman should 'wait to be asked' and that its somehow unseemly to have a 'cards on the table' conversation.

I am 32.

The sperm donor/adoption/fostering route is not one that appeals to us all and requires a great deal of financial stability and/or family support.

Since I can't meet a man, it seems I'll be childless which does sadden me.

I expect to get shot down for this - but the life our parents led seemed far less complicated. Ok, I can't imagine life without wi-fi or iPhones, but the important stuff seemed far less onerous in my mother's day.

I'm now slinking to off to hide in case bricks are thrown .......

Oktowonder, you've still got time.

LDR makes a good point: that its a far harder situation to call when you're in the middle of it. My friend got quite scared of mentioning the future - she was scared to rock the boat - and even though she's a bright educated lady, she lost the ability to be rational. She kept telling me that if she 'held her nerve' it might work out ok.