Commitment-phobic men are often the reason that women 'delay' starting a family

[Petal02]

A lovely friend of mine is in bits because her latest relationship has broken down. She is 41, would love to settle down and start a family, but has been unfortunate to have a string of boyfriends who didn't know what they wanted, or wanted to keep their options open, or didn't want children now but might have wanted them in the future. You get the picture.

She was 'told off' by her GP about 6 months ago (when she mentioned the subject of conception) for 'hanging around too much and not getting on with it.'

Yet you read so much about women who allegedly decide to wait til their 40s before starting a family; I suspect some of them would have started far earlier if only there weren't so many idiotic men about.

Sorry, just wanted to offload. Makes me very sad.

I also agree with whoever said for working class men being a father brings status, whether as for middle/upper class men it is often seen as somewhat of a burden.

I do know lots of people who would identify as working class have, and their parents have, careers that are demanding and so on.

I just notice this as one possible issue. But I think you are right it is more to do with lifestyle than anything else.

And I suppose this goes back to what men expect, too. I guess maybe if you are a man who knows you can afford treatment for infertility in your 40s/50s, you worry less. Whereas if you are not, and you know you may struggle to get someone pregnant later on, you are more aware that you might need to get on with it to have a baby.

Gah. I meant to prefix that by saying I didn't mean to generalize.

Compared to a working class bloke a wealthy man in his 40's or 50's also has a better chance of attracting a younger woman to have his children.

But his attractiveness to women of childbearing age is still likely to drop off pretty sharply after late 50's or so whatever his net worth

22honey, it depends on your criteria for determining class, perhaps I should have said 'people with low socio economic status' rather than 'working class'.
Your dad with his businesses and properties is, ipso facto, clearly not a person of low socio economic status (irrespective of his working class roots)

A lot of men simply don't know that women's fertility declines at the end of their 30s; they think that menopause happens at about 50 and women have 10-15 years longer than they actually do. .

^^ this.

do these blokes not register that women of slightly less than 'about 50' tend not to be the ones having babies

Let me throw a new idea into the discussion... perhaps the problem in not that men are scared at women being blunt about wanting children... instead, I believe men tend to hate having doors closed for them in advance, or having decisions made for them, regardless what their opinions are in the matter to start with.

I have always been sure I would never have children. Simply never ever wanted them. I have always been clear about this with potential partners. At 32 I did online-dating for a couple of years, and stated "No, not ever" on the section "Children". I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the men who were shocked and horrified, or worse, contacted me with a very clear "I want to have children in 5/10 years" in their profiles. When I pointed to the clear incompatibility on our profiles, they invariably would say something like "Well, you can still change your mind!".

Among the ones who were shocked at my temerity for having decided not to have children, there were some who had also run away from a friend of mine precisely because she had stated early that she wanted children. I know, because we simply talked to one another, were in the same online dating website, and had photos of the guys we dated.

After many years of partners and dates, I have come to the conclusion that guys like to have their choices open. Many men actually do want to have children in the future, but would run from a woman who would "adamantly want children soon", as that would limit their chances of having them later, or changing their mind and not having them. Many men are not that interested in having children, but are scared of someone who adamantly does not want them, because that would close a door that they might want to open in the future. In summary, I believe men want to be the ones with power to decide, or to have control about decisions. Push them either way, and they will likely run away.

Only if you are of that personality sgb. It would be physically impossible to turn me in to a domestic animal on the first or after a 40 year marriage. Im not that personality to do stuff like that. Im sure there are lots of people like me.

My biggest mistake in life was nit getting rid of my abusive ex when I went to uni. I met one of the lobes of my life on my vourse but we couldnt be together ad I had abusive idiot.
Even after uni when we were bith single love of life chased me but I was too messed up to be with hum.
Now at 36 I am struggling but have a date on Thursday so who knows.

, lOves

Sorry typos

I've seen a lot of people mention not wanting to "scare" their date away by talking about the future. Surely that is the whole point? Especially for a woman who doesn't have a lot of time to play with. Eliminating men who don't want the same things is brilliant.

Only continuing to date man who have similar values, plans to have children is a great start. It certainly doesn't mean they will be the right one but it does mean the woman doesn't risk falling in love with a man who doesn't want the same life that she does.

There also seems to be a real lack of self-esteem when people talk about scaring others off. By talking about marriage & kids early on, it certainly does not mean that the man in question is being proposed to or being asked to face a baby any time soon.

The man should count himself lucky that he is on a date with you to start with, and be trying his best to impress you. If you ever get to the stage of even thinking of that man as a potential father for your children/husband then he will be even luckier, nothing scary about it!

I am one of the people who met my DH when I was young, so I don't know for myself what it is like to be single as an older woman. I've seen it with many friends though and a lot of the time they turn down the men who are interested in them & would treat them well (the 'nice guys') & chase after men who obviously don't want/can't have serious relationships with them.

Talking about 'luck' when you fall in love seems weird to me. I think that love is a choice.

Spot on Morning about putting your cards on the table early on - it's a wanker filter. If they get scared off, they weren't right for you anyway. (One of the happiest couples I know - the older woman came straight out with it on the third date because she knew she didn't have time to mess around and couldn't afford to get into a relationship with someone who didn't want children - they now have a CP and two children )

However, I've had a couple of coup de foudre experiences with falling in love - it's not a choice in my experience (all you can choose is how you act once it's happened).

I did run out of time, and ended up having to go down the donor sperm route - but I will hold my hands up and say I made stupid decisions along the way, like trying to persuade myself that love for a bloke who didn't want children was sufficiently important that I'd rather be with him and childless than without him (this was a spectacular piece of self-delusion - compounded by the fact that he was a selfish git who not merely didn't want children with me, but had quite a take-it-or-leave-it attitude to the relationship as a whole). Mercifully I have a child now - which of course, now in my late 40s, means I will never date again (see endless threads about men's preferences on dating web sites and the age gaps they expect) - but for me, given that I had an either/or choice, I made the right one.

OK - I've been trying to stay off here but I can't resist. I'm not sure some of the posters appreciate just how hurtful it is to be told that the difficult situation you find yourself in is largely your own fault - if you had been braver, less like a pair of fluffy slippers, less concerned with your career or socio-economic status you'd now be happily married with children

I'm 33, living with a partner but not engaged, no children and not much likelihood of them. I was in 2 long term relationships through uni and into the 1st year of my PhD, the last of those finished because among other things I wasn't sure about children and he definitely didn't want one. Through my PhD I had no success in meeting Mr Right, despite internet dating - a series of disasters. Then I started work, my social group was all new graduates 4 years younger than me and mainly out to party or in relationships since uni. So more internet dating, as before relationships of less than a year, waste of time.

Then I met my DP through work, he is 4 years younger than me. At this stage I still wasn't sure I wanted children, neither was he, all fine. After 18 months we moved across the world together and interlinked our careers and finances. I saw this as the 1st of a series of commitments. A year later no proposal has been forthcoming despite various discussions about weddings and so on - not unreasonable, we've been together less than 3 years. However, I've also become increasingly leaning towards wanting children so started to mention the idea. He's still not sure - he wants to wait until he's 30 to discuss, I'm acutely aware that I am then 33.5 and the clock is ticking.

I am happy with him, enjoy our relationship and our lifestyle here. If we were to split we'd have to move back to the UK, it would impact both our careers and finances and then as many on this thread show, there's no reason to think I'd be any more successful than I was in my presumably more attractive 20's.

So it's not as simple as 'he's a b*stard and won't commit' - he's not sure, as I wasn't at his age, but by the time he is my age it may be too late. It's also not as simple as 'dump him and get a 'good' man who wants to settle and have babies'.

Anyway, reading the 1st dozen pages of this last night reduced me to a sobbing heap on the sofa. DP asked what was wrong, which lead to a very open and heartfelt conversation (on my side) that resolved nothing. Probably need to start a thread of my own on relationships.

It is as simple as dump him. I divorced, left an otherwise good marriage and nice lifestyle. Why? He decided he did not want kids.

It was unpleasant, took about 2 years for us to finally divorce, but there's on compromise, sadly, when one wants kids and one does not.

I moved 5000 miles away, married a very working class man nearly 7 years younger than I am and we had three children in 5 years.

It's a dealbreaker.

I gave it a year when I moved here, that if I didn't meet anyone who wanted to partner up and have kids, then I was going to go it alone or find a gay man or couple who wanted to co-parent.

If I turned out to be infertile I could have dealt with that, it not with not ever trying.

expat, that is quite harsh (or maybe an accidental juxaposition of posts).

You don't know you 'could have dealt' with being infertile. Nobody knows exactly how they'll deal with things until those things happen.

lost, I'm sorry you're upset ... but glad you had that conversation. Good for you for doing it.

I do think it is a big issue if he's saying he wants to wait to 'discuss' it. That does not sound hopeful.

I understand why it hurts, LostandConfused, but isn't it because it's too close to home rather than all of it being wrong. Some or none of it might apply to you, but most of the factors above have applied to at least one woman who wanted children and ran out of time.

You are understanding of your partner being unsure about children because of his age, you were unsure at his age. But he has a female partner aged 33. It is unfair for him to put it off and off and off knowing that your fertility may be (it may not be!) declining all the while. Three years is enough to know what you want long-term. When you were unsure it didn't affect anyone else. Shouldn't he love and respect you enough to talk openly and honestly about it rather than doing the 'later, maybe later' dance? If he doesn't want children, fine, but he should let you know now. If he does, tell him there's not much time left to wait for the 'right' time.

The man should count himself lucky that he is on a date with you to start with, and be trying his best to impress you. If you ever get to the stage of even thinking of that man as a potential father for your children/husband then he will be even luckier, nothing scary about it!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

This is not, shall we say, the reality that I've occupied.

Lostandconfused.

I feel for you. Honestly I do and if I upset you with my post many many pages ago then I'd like to apologise.

BUT you are at a key stage of life here and actually I think you need to grow some balls. If the man you are with is the man you wish to be your life partner and father of your children then you need to make that absolutely clear. It is non negotiable. I think we are too frightened to rock the boat and prefer to keep where waters are calm and life just ticks along.

You obviously want commitment and so you need to make it clear that you wish to be married within two years. I don't care if that scares the shit out of him and makes him think twice. If he reacts by wanting to break up he was always likely to want to break up, as after three years you know if you consider the other person as your future spouse.

Lostandconfused - I want to give you a big hug. I am all too aware of the dangers of projection, but honestly, reading your post next to mine gave me shivers, because it was like reading a post from the younger me! (Except that I started my last LT relationship at 33, with a much younger man, and I was 39 when we split).

Now, you are not me (even as I was back then), and your relationship is not the one I was in (yours sounds stronger), but if I was on one of those "advice to give to your younger self" threads, I'd say "be absolutely honest with yourself about what you want from life, and with him, even if it means splitting up - because splitting up sooner will be less painful and have a better outcome than splitting up later." It may well be that in your case honesty means your relationship can be salvaged - but trust me, burying your head in the sand will not work (I have a bloody drawer full of the t-shirts). And at 33 you are still young (at 48 I most definitely am not).

NB I realise this is a counsel of perfection - the reason I did not leave my ex earlier was because I loved him very much, and in many respects on a day-to-day level he made me extremely happy. And I do have a friend of my age who chose husband over children - but note, he was her husband, he had committed to her, his love for her was not in doubt. But ultimately in my case there was no getting round the hole at the centre of the relationship. (And if I think in terms of the 3 things I wanted out of life - a child, a partner, a career that left me intellectually satisfied - I too have a PhD - ex was offering me 0 out of 3: no children, no marriage, leave my job to move to be with him even though he showed no sign of putting any of himself into the relationship).

aurynne that works both ways too. When I was online dating, I had women who had the status of "undecided" over kids refuse to date me because my position of not wanting children meant I was effectively taking their decision away from them.

Harsh is someone filled with regret and sadness, having never had the chance to have kids they really wanted due to relationships they little deserved.

No, I don't know how I'd have coped with infertility, but I do know what it's like to walk the walk and leave an otherwise good relationship becuase he did not want children.

In summary, I believe men want to be the ones with power to decide, or to have control about decisions

^this

I made it very clear early on to my current partner that I wouldn't be having more children.
He later admitted that he thought he could persuade me to have a child with him, ie he presumed that the woman will defer to the man.

I had my tubes tied to ensure no more babies.

Just to add my DP spent most of his child rearing years raising his ex partners child with her. At the age of 39 he met me, after being single for a year. He was adamant he didn't want children, 3 months later he was undecided, 2 months later we had decided we would maybe try for them in a year, a week later found out I was pregnant lol

He is now the most doting father that ever was, lived for my son and me and is desperate for me to conceive our second.

Moral of the story is that sometimes people are adamant they don't want children initially but change their mind. Or else they are adamant they don't want children in their current relationship, yet miraculously meet someone else and suddenly they are married and TTC. This stuff is rarely black and white.