Commitment-phobic men are often the reason that women 'delay' starting a family

[Petal02]

A lovely friend of mine is in bits because her latest relationship has broken down. She is 41, would love to settle down and start a family, but has been unfortunate to have a string of boyfriends who didn't know what they wanted, or wanted to keep their options open, or didn't want children now but might have wanted them in the future. You get the picture.

She was 'told off' by her GP about 6 months ago (when she mentioned the subject of conception) for 'hanging around too much and not getting on with it.'

Yet you read so much about women who allegedly decide to wait til their 40s before starting a family; I suspect some of them would have started far earlier if only there weren't so many idiotic men about.

Sorry, just wanted to offload. Makes me very sad.

I don't know about your point LRD, but I wholeheartedly agree about the fear mongering and backlash against the little bit of liberation women have had in the last 40 years or so. There is such a lot of glee in the right wing press over this issue-thought you could be free did you? Wasted your youth looking for a man who might actually treat you right? And now look! Noone wants you!
There are worse things than being single, for sure. I feel for my friends who are sad about being childless, but I don't think it's anything they have done wrong. They just either didn't fall in love at the right time, or they are stuck with a smaller pool of marriagable men than there was in their twenties.

Oh, I absolutely agree with that.

My point is a much smaller and more speculative one.

The man who is willing, on the second or third date, to marry and breed might very well be the man who is going to isolate you from all your friends, control all the money and impregnate you repeatedly whether you like it or not, because he thinks women are domestic animals

Seriously Mumsnet do you honestly think this is in order?

I do not recognise this in my life at all.

On this thread we've gone from Men choosing not to have children because they choose not to.

To this statement above.

It's as true of women as of men, car.

Some people are not very nice, like it or not.

The difficulty is saying to someone - on the third date - that you might be up for marriage and kids.

Asking someone if they are up for marriage and children after the 3rd date would make most people cock and ear and ask for the bill.

there's a terrible fear embedded in the whole structure of the patriarchy that women will collectively stop wanting to have children and marry men if they are given the chance to do so

I agree.
There's an underlying assumption on this kind of thread that womens best interests are served by having children and being in a committed relationship.

As far as I can see most of the benefits of that set up are not going to the women

Sorry, I don't follow ... car, are you saying the third date is too early but after the third date is too late?

I hate to say it, but I think that might just be you!

No LRD i'm saying that being asked on the 3rd date about marriage and children and specifically if you want some is a little bit forward.

If you think it's a normal thing to bring up after a 3rd date then i'm happy for you.

As I said it's a "Cheque please" moment.

Yes, but that is the point, isn't it?

You don't want someone who wants kids that much. So you'd get out.

What we're talking about is the kind of person who thinks 'argh, I definitely don't want to think about kids, not now, FFS this is the third date!' but who says 'well, honey, maybe' ... because they're too scared/conditioned to say how they feel.

Someone like you is being honest and that is a positive thing.

If a man said to a woman on their 3rd date that he would like to marry her and have her children (As soon as possible please) I would imagine that most women would do a face.

Anyone who misses the boat and wants children I sympathise with but the only way around that is either casual sex on or a sperm donor to make sure and to cover all the angles.

I would say looking for love and having children are not mutually exclusive things.

In my family both my uncle and aunt are still single in their 70s. Some members of my family think that my uncle is gay and either celibate or very very discrete (I've no strong thoughts either way) but his choices have never really been questioned. My aunt on the other hand was always given as a bit of an example of what not to do especially by my mother (very traditionalist and sadly quite sexist although I think she sees herself as quite feminist). As far as I can see she has led and is living a happy and fulfilled life. But serious double standards, and I suspect not unusual.

I don't think you would ask on a third date, and often the date is rather irrelevant as so many people get into relationships with people they know socially and so know something about.

But there are indicators that you start looking for early in a relationship (or before you get into it) that the other person is family orientated - has gone on holiday with a sibling this year, spends time looking after nephews, sees elderly family members and so on. Like any other point of compatability, you want somebody who shares your values when it comes to the importance of family life. If somebody never talks about their family and seems to spend no time with them, that is a red flag surely?

Caruthers I don't think that anyone is suggesting proposing on a third date, just setting out what they are looking for in a relationship.

Generally speaking I think that most people would say it was preferable to have support in bringing up children, being a single parent is hard work. Granted you can have other support networks than a partner but most children want to know both their parents, even if just to understand their medical history. I'm not sure it's a great idea to deliberately choose to have a child where that's not possible, and I would imagine that it's very much a compromise position for most people.

But you wouldn't sit down at the table and say 'so then, kids, when?' would you?

But in normal relationships, people sound each other out. If you're not that up for kids, that won't involve discussing kids, and indeed, you'll find it offputting if someone else discusses it.

Personally, I've been on a date with a bloke who started talking to me about what he thought his salary would be in five years time and I found it a turn-off - not because it's a terrible thing to mention, but just because it told me his priorities and mine were different, so not much point me sticking around.

Likewise, I'm sure he was looking for someone who'd have been interested in that.

nooka

The difficulty is saying to someone - on the third date - that you might be up for marriage and kids

Of course this is the same thing.

And this is the crux of the thread as it's developed.

Mention children and marriage and you're left talking to an empty seat sometimes.

How to avoid it isn't as easy as it seems because there is a finite amount of time.

Mmm. I think there's quite a big difference between working out whether someone is, in theory, up for having children/settling down, and actually proposing marriage/getting knocked up.

Of course, some people know for sure they don't want marriage/kids so it's a dealbreaker.

And some people do want marriage/kids but want to take things slow, so for them it's a dealbreaker.

But surely your average man or woman who's asking these questions is up for marriage/kids fairly soon, so won't want either of those types anyhow?

I guess what I'm getting at is, I don't see why you think this is such a huge thing? You're coming across as if you want to put people off ever having this conversation, because to you it is an uncomfortable or unwelcome one.

Ironically, it's sort of OK in your twenties to talk about if you want kids or not when you are newly dating-I know I have had those conversations with men, and it's all a bit dreamy and misty eyed. Maybe because it can still be treated as hypothetical.
And yet, in your late thirties it feels like there are so many rules about what you can and can't say. My friends who are seriously dating, and looking, for a man who might be a) decent (and by decent I mean a decent guy, not wealthy or perfect) and b) willing to entertain the idea of family end up having these serial non relationships with men who are up for a nice time, but ultimately want to keep their options open.
One of my brothers is like this. He always said he wanted children, but he is either in a convenient "for now" relationship, or he falls hard for someone but can't make it work (usually because he is incapable of actually putting someone else first).
The thing is, he is incredibly romantic. He has an impossible ideal of what he wants, and it does';t exist. No-one ever matches up.
He has broken a lot of hearts I think, but also is quite heartbroken himself about what he feels he will never have.
I have said to him many times that carrying on these "it'll do for a bit" relationships may be fine for him, but there are women he has kept stringing along for ages who have been over 35 and surely must be wondering what the deal is.
Now he is with a woman who is older, and has almost grown kids, and I think this maybe the best solution for him, as I can't see him ever being a consistent husband or father.

Yes georgesdino, working class people are definately more family orientated in my experience.

Suzanne, just because someone is from a working class background doesn't mean they are skint and have no opportunities in life either. My dad was from a poor working class family and now owns several businesses and properties, he has got a lot of money and subsequently I've been on several dream holidays and cruises not fitted to my working class life and background, just to counter the idea some people have that working class people all have boring lives and never go anywhere or have any money. He still has the working class mindset when it comes to life and family. This is also the case for several members of my DP's family and one of my good school friends, again all working class but by no means skint or going without!

Although there is truth in what you are saying, that is the whole point of my previous post. Higher economic opportunities, more money etc puts particularly men off settling down. Why would they want to when they have endless fun opportunities to delay having any responsibility, or they have such a demanding career they have little time or energy for marriage and kids? Plus middle/upper class people are generally encouraged more towards education and economic success than working class people where family is seen as very very important. Which is why I merely stated if having a family is the most important thing to some women they should consider a working class man as they are often much more keen to settle down.

I don't think anyone's saying its in women's best interest to be tied to the kitchen sink with children, but the fact is many women DO want children (try reading ttc forums) and do want to be happily married. If this isnt what a woman wants at any point in her life I applaud her, its usually very strong minded women with great individuality who feel this way. Theres so much a childless woman can achieve in life, and if thats the way they wish to be good on them.

Many people who waited to have children will say there is never a right time to have them. I have to agree, a crisis could hit anytime rendering it now the wrong time to have children. We do not have full control over our lives, and anything could happen!

I guess what I'm getting at is, I don't see why you think this is such a huge thing? You're coming across as if you want to put people off ever having this conversation, because to you it is an uncomfortable or unwelcome one

I'm not saying that really I really don't believe people have that conversation like they did prior to the death of the nuclear family.

What's obvious to me is that even in this mini discussion there are different ideas on how and when the subject of marriage and children should/could be broached.

And if men suddenly decide that marriage isn't part of their culture anymore and that having children isn't what they need and want from life?

Where do you go from there?

ifnot - I do see that.

I just don't follow the implication (or maybe I'm reading it wrongly) that it's somehow wrong to ever discuss it.

Surely it'd be better if both men and women felt confident to say what they think?!

22 - I know this depends how you define 'working class', but if one definition is having parents who are working class, the age, location and committments of those parents might be a big factor. When a couple of girls in my year group got pregnant, they knew their mums were just down the road and were working jobs they could reasonably easily work around doing some childcare to help - granted, this was before the recession so I may be out of date. If your parents are high-flying career types who don't live near you and won't change their work pattern, you have less of a support network, I guess? Though more financially, so much of it must be expectations, too.

car - fair enough, I'm not sure how many people have that conversation either.

I think lots of men (and women) do think marriage and kids are expectationly only the older generation had. That's not surprising, is it? We have reliable, accessible birth control, and for adults today, that puts us only one or two generations away from people who couldn't control fertility. So it's not odd there's a big sense of change, I think.

Good post Honey22.

I would agree with you LRD.

The expectations of what people should do are breaking down with regards to relationships.

Procreation and reproduction are part of that structure and they will change. I'm not suggesting that people en masse will not choose to have children, just that they may choose to have children in a different way.

Yes, I think that will happen and is already happening.

LRD I do think you are right. Although I am working class and so are my parents, both have careers and are financially sound, and though they arn't at my beck and call 24/7 like the parents of some of my working class friends (because they are often working, a lot of my working class friends parents rarely or don't work, and they all live very close too eachother), they can and do help me out financially.

I guess a lot of it is expectations and the lifestyle of your family and peers, I saw my DM have her children in her 20s then achieve a career she always wanted aswell as own her own home etc in her 30s+, thus I have probably subconsciously took this path myself.

It is true there is no size fits all as unfortunately a lot of this business with children and meeting the right man is down to luck.