Difficulties with DS and his best friend, please help.

[PinklePurr]

This might be long as I don't want to drip feed, and a few bits may be slightly vague to try and keep this as anonymous as possible.

I met my best friend ( BF ) 10 years ago at ante natal classes.
She has a DD ( FD1 ) 3 days older than my DS.
We have met up once or twice a week ever since the children were born and FD1 and DS are genuine best friends too.
BF also has a DD ( FD2 ) who is 3 years younger.

FD2 is 'challenging', regularly throws tantrums and shouts and screams at FD1 and DS when she doesn't get her own way when they are playing.

DS is "fed up of her" (his words) and wants quality time with FD1.

I have suggested to BF that FD1 comes round to mine to once a week for tea on the day that FD2 does an after school activity and we continue to all meet up once a week so that FD2 can be included.

BF has said that she cannot allow that as "it isn't fair on FD2 because she feels left out", "FD2 considers DS to be her friend too" (DS considers FD2 to be his best friend's little sister), "FD2 doesn't like activity so it's not fair for her to miss out on meeting up", "FD2 doesn't have a best friend so it's not fair that she misses out". BF explained this to DS and FD1 and pointed out that life isn't fair so they will just have to put up with it.

Is this really the case? It seems that DS and FD1 are learning a life lesson and FD2 is not.

DS is struggling with the situation.

I know that BF has 'issues' with feeling left out as a younger sister when she was little. I am also a little sister and my mum has confirmed that my brother was NOT expected to entertain me and that she found other things for me to do. I occasionally kicked off but learnt that I wasn't going to get my own way. I did have my own friends though.

My question - Which one of us is being unreasonable?

If it is me, I will accept that and put up with it.
If it is BF, how can I deal with it without hurting her?

Your for end is BU

diddl - I suggested it to both of the older children and BF while we were having a chat about it all as I wanted them to know that the 'deal' was that FD2 was to be NEVER left out when all together. I think I have said that DS and FD1 are good but not perfect - they would be expected to do better. Both children liked the idea.

I have no doubt that FD1 and DS remain best friends through choice. Both BF and I expected them to start growing apart but they haven't yet.

Herc - are you reading the same thread as everyone else?

I feel very sorry for the OP's DS.

I think it's lovely that one of his best friends is a girl, however I don't know many 10 year-old boys that would choose to spend time with 7 year-old girls. So he's put up with more than most already.

So how are Fd2s tantrums handled?

And I think it is only natural that your DS sees Fd2 as the sister of his friend rather than as his friend.

Also, 3 really is really a problem number, unless the DC are all very much in tune with each other.

Sadly the older daughter will be learning another life lesson-that if you always have to have your little sister with you you won't get many invitations.

OP, perhaps you ought to be encouraging other friendships for your son & that this is one where everyone gets together iyswim rather than a particular friend of his.

That said I also can't help thinking that if they are determined to stay friends then this won't put them off.

I am also wondering what happens when the younger girl "tantrums".

BF ignores a lot of screaming as she considers it important that siblings work it out between them. As a general rule I deal with it if the children start complaining to us. FD2 will quite often listen to me. Time out is used if it's possible, but if it's gone too far in to complete meltdown then BF keeps an eye on her to make sure she's not in any danger and lets it run its course.
BF does try to explain to her that if she didn't shout and scream so much FD1 and DS would enjoy playing with her more (which they have both said is true).

I don't suppose it will be a problem much longer. They are 10. They will be at senior school soon and won't want or tolerate Mum's arranging playdates for them.

This reminds me of a family I knew who had a DD my age and another DD who was about 3 years younger. The younger DD was rather spoilt and didn't really have many friends of her own. Their Mum got a bit sensitive about young DD never having friends to play with so always tried to force older DD to take younger DD with her, which the rest of our circle of friends found very irksome. On one occasion (and we would have been 9 or 10 I guess) a group of us called for our friend but the Mum said she could only go out if she took little sis with her. A brief discussion followed and the consensus was "See you tomorrow then", i.e. we liked friend but not enough to keep putting up with the awful sister. Reading back it sounds cruel and I am sure the Mum was cross about it but I guess that is what kids do and this Mum risked ruining her older DDs friendships by taking this stance.

I suppose it's hard if the younger one has been part of it for 7yrs to now say, well, they no longer want you.

I suppose it's surprising that the two older ones have never played together in all that time.

diddl - FD1 & DS have had time, just the two of them. I have had FD1 for some sleepovers and there have been occasions when FD2 has gone out with her dad.

FD1 & DS do talk on the phone quite a lot, and text each other.

No they don't have their own mobiles, they use mine and BF's!

but if it's gone too far in to complete meltdown then BF keeps an eye on her to make sure she's not in any danger and lets it run its course.

And this child is seven?

Oh dear. Poor FD1 having to work it out with her younger sister. To be honest the younger one sounds a brat.

When my younger one pesters her sister during a play date I remove younger one from situation. Putting her on computer, colouring, or some other solitary activity.

If I was your shoes I would be meeting up more without children. I couldn't handle listening to that on a regular basis.

What is FD1 doing whilst FD2 is swimming?

What 5Foot said: They are 10 years old; playdates aren't going to be lasting much longer. Your ds will go off with his own mates once he gets to secondary and your BF will be stranded because she hasn't learn to handle this transition period.

(This happened to us when ds reached secondary: I had been making him include my friend's dc, but he turned to me one day and pointed out that: "You don't have to invite people round whom you don't like so you can't make me do it either. You don't invite people who fight and scream and wreck your things and embarrass you in front of your other friends, so why do you expect me to do it?")

It's a bizarre set-up though, in the OP's case: the younger girl is allowed her special activity which leaves her older sister out, but the older sister is not allowed to do something to keep herself occupied at the same time in case it leaves the younger sister left out.

OP - what exactly is fd2 supposed to do at these occasions if you and the other mum are both there, is she supposed to play alone? Or sit quietly with the adults? If children visit with their parents, then I'd expect all kids to play together, definitely. If I invited a child to play with one of mine, without parents, I would not expect to always invite their sibling.
It sounds weird that you invite the whole family over and then wonder why the one that isn't the close friend acts up

poopadoop, what the OP has suggested, if I have understood her rightly is a double arrangement:

for everybody to meet up once a week so that the younger child can be included

for the two older children to have a separate playdate once a week when the younger child is doing her own activity anyway

This separate playdate would presumably not include the mother- and there is, of course, no reason why a 10yo would need to be accompanied by her mother when she visits a friend.

FunkyBoldRibena - I believe FD1 either sits at the side and watches or sometimes swims.

poopadoop - FD2 has never been expected to play alone, she has always been included. The older 2 have asked for 'quality time together'.

DS has been talking to me since he got in from school, he's actually quite upset!

Thanks everyone for your input on this.

It's an interesting question: how old do our dc have to be before we recognise that they have feelings about socialising that are pretty similar to our own?

(assuming here that not many adults feel obliged to keep inviting people they don't like)

Personally, it's years since I invited someone home whom I didn't like. I don't think I ever intend to do it again. Nor would I expect 17yo dd or 13yo ds to do so. So somewhere there is a dividing line. I'd say it comes when dc are old enough to go off to a friend's house without being taken. And I would think 10 is quite old enough for that.

So the older girl is not included in her sisters activity, but it doesn't work the other way around.

Perhaps the mother might have been more willing if it was offered as 'if she is just sitting on the side, why don't you drop her here for her tea and pick her up on your way home'.

Absolutely agree with Corry - your friend is being U - children old enough to choose their own friends should not be made to play with random children who happen to be the offspring of their parents' friends, regardless of whether they get on or not; it is an example of the double standards adults have about children, like "children should share" - expecting your child to allow some visiting child to trash a long running imaginary game the have left set up and are in the middle of or roughly handle a beloved toy because they are a guest (not of their choosing) is teaching them to be a submissive doormat without much self respect, forcing them to play with children they don't get on with so you can have a peaceful chat with your friend, esp on a regular basis, lacks any respect for your child as a person who has legitimate preferences and the right to choose their friends.

Your friend seems to have a blind spot the side of a bus on the issue of her children's friendships and relationship with one another - the older one is going to resent her sister deeply very soon, if she doesn't already, and they are both going to end up isolated outside of school hours.

FunkyBoldRibena - that was the suggestion I made, but I have been told that that is not acceptable because FD2 will feel left out.

OP - gosh that is such a conundrum. Your friend sounds a bit weird if she can't accept that your ds and older child can't play while the younger one is busy anyway when you're also offering to meet up outside that time. Gah...can you do something to make her life easier while she brings fd2 to her activity - like pick fd1 up from school on that day or something? I'd be a bit irked if a friend was relying on one of my dcs to provide the only outside-school friendship to their dc

It all sounds quite complicated..... But at the end of it you are both looking out for your own child/rens best interest. You want you dc to have one to one time with FD1, and she wants her younger child included.

You either swallow it OP and let everyone play together, or cut off from playdates. Are the children in the same school?

Madmum, do you really think the other mum is acting in the best interests of her children? I don't think she is.

She is teaching the younger child that she doesn't have to make any efforts of her own to make friends because she can always tag along with big sister.

She is teaching big sister that little sister is more important than she is(presumably because she makes more of a fuss): when big sister does an activity little sister has to be included, when little sister does an activity big sister can sit by the side and watch.

She is setting big sister up for a situation where very soon she won't have any friends. 11/12yos are not going to accept friendships which are micro-managed by parents: they'll just go off and find themselves different friends.

And that's before we even get to the point (perhaps 2-3 years in the future) where big sister may want a boyfriend.

To me, acting in the your children's best interests means thinking about the stage of life they are at and helping to equip them with the skills they will need for that stage.