Difficulties with DS and his best friend, please help.

[PinklePurr]

This might be long as I don't want to drip feed, and a few bits may be slightly vague to try and keep this as anonymous as possible.

I met my best friend ( BF ) 10 years ago at ante natal classes.
She has a DD ( FD1 ) 3 days older than my DS.
We have met up once or twice a week ever since the children were born and FD1 and DS are genuine best friends too.
BF also has a DD ( FD2 ) who is 3 years younger.

FD2 is 'challenging', regularly throws tantrums and shouts and screams at FD1 and DS when she doesn't get her own way when they are playing.

DS is "fed up of her" (his words) and wants quality time with FD1.

I have suggested to BF that FD1 comes round to mine to once a week for tea on the day that FD2 does an after school activity and we continue to all meet up once a week so that FD2 can be included.

BF has said that she cannot allow that as "it isn't fair on FD2 because she feels left out", "FD2 considers DS to be her friend too" (DS considers FD2 to be his best friend's little sister), "FD2 doesn't like activity so it's not fair for her to miss out on meeting up", "FD2 doesn't have a best friend so it's not fair that she misses out". BF explained this to DS and FD1 and pointed out that life isn't fair so they will just have to put up with it.

Is this really the case? It seems that DS and FD1 are learning a life lesson and FD2 is not.

DS is struggling with the situation.

I know that BF has 'issues' with feeling left out as a younger sister when she was little. I am also a little sister and my mum has confirmed that my brother was NOT expected to entertain me and that she found other things for me to do. I occasionally kicked off but learnt that I wasn't going to get my own way. I did have my own friends though.

My question - Which one of us is being unreasonable?

If it is me, I will accept that and put up with it.
If it is BF, how can I deal with it without hurting her?

But if OP & her friend are always meeting up when the 10yr olds are, what is the friend supopsed to do with her other daughter?

Fine if a playdate happened to be arranged for her at the same time, but if not?

Right - so the issue is really that FD2 (and FD1 too I assume?) aren't allowed to have friends to play outside of school apart from your DS?

So it's not really surprising that FD2 sees your DS as her friend too as he's the only child that ever comes to her house. Do they not go to other people's houses because your friend is worried about reciprocity? Is her house really dirty and untidy or is it 'normal' and she's a bit anxious?

I think your suggestion to get your DC1s together when FDC2 is otherwise occupied was more than reasonable.

It's very hard when you're out with friends/family and one child is sat on the sidelines crying watching because they're the wrong age/sex or whatever- but you do have the option to avoid it.

But then again- she isn't U to not want social events to be arranged to deliberately exclude her youngest. The best thing to do would be to go back in time five years and never involve the youngest in the friendship at all.

OP, I'm with you on this.

I have two DDs, 11 and 9. While dd2 is very friendly with several of DD1s friends, I have learned it is best for DD2 to have her own friend over when DD1 has a friend over. Otherwise she feels left out and pesters the older girls.

Could you suggest to your BF, that she invites over a friend for DF2, so she doesn't feel left out by older two? It might also help FD2 make friends, and perhaps the older two could involve the younger ones in one or two things, to ensure FD2s play date is a success.

I believe the older children should not have to include younger siblings in their play dates.

What happens when DF2 has a tantrum? Can the older two continue to play without her while her mother calms her down? Or so they get pulled into it?

I feel sorry for your DS and his friend. And I feel sorry for FD2 also, but it would drive me crazy to have her around if she is always kicking off.

Just out of interest, if FD2 suddenly finds a best-friend, maybe when they start school (if they're not already there) will they be expected to allow your DS to play with them, whether FD1 is there or not? I doubt it.

YANBU.

Your friend seems to have been sacrificing her younger child's needs to the needs of her older cild, your child, and both of you, for the younger child's entire life. Poor little thing. And how very unkind of your DS to say that he doesn't regard her as a friend. He;s known her all her life. :(

If I was your friend, I'd be your ex friend and you wouldn't have that problem any more.

YABVVVU

WTAF? - Herc, where on earth did you get that from? She's been bringing this kid to every playdate, how is that sacrificing her younger child's needs to the other kids, who have their playtime interrupted by her tantrumming?

I've known people all my life, it doesn't mean that they're my friends. No sympathy for this child, the mother should not at the age of 7 be bringing her to stay at playdates anyway.

OP, YANBU at ALL. DD has a friend in school who has a little sister, as it happens DD and little sister get on very well and DD always invites her to her parties, but their mum has now started saying no, as her eldest wants some time to be herself with her friends and not 'the big sister' all the time. THAT is eminently reasonable and DD is fine with it (she sees the little sister at school and plays with her there). They are 9 year olds and the little sister is 5. Mind you, the little sister in that case isn't a tantrumming, needy horror, most likely because her needs are met in conjunction with the rest of the family members' needs...

Too many 'needs' there, but I hope that made sense!

diddl - BF and I would not meet up on the 'extra' day.

OddFodd - that is part of the problem which I hadn't thought about 'til now. Her house is maybe a little untidier than others - but not much! I have offered to help her tidy (she can tidy, I'll clean) as it bothers her, but it never happens.

HercShipwright - If that is the way DS feels I can't change that. He has NOT said it to FD2 as he knows he would be in serious trouble if he did. He knows that you just don't say that kind of thing to anyone.

I think I mentioned before that FD1 and DS are good at including FD2 and playing her games, they just don't want to do it ALL the time.

And how very unkind of your DS to say that he doesn't regard her as a friend. He's known her all her life.

Just because you've known someone all their lives doesn't mean they are necessarily your friend.

I'm with you.

I have 2 dd's 3 years apart. Dd1 finds it harder to make friends, but when she does they tend to be close.
Dd2 finds it easy to make friends, and regards anyone she's vaguely talked to a good friend.

This means that dd1 has a friend round, dd2 says hello to them-and then regards them as a good friend. She can get put out when they want to do something on their own, and often the friend sees this younger "sweet" little sister and kindly adapts the games to revolve round her, which can mean effectively dd1 being pushed to one side. Or dd2 wants to stand and chat to the friend as dd1 and friend are trying to get homework sorted etc.

So now I have a rule that dd2 is allowed to say "hello" and if dd1 invites her to join in then that is fine, but otherwise she keeps out of the way. It is actually fairer on both that way. Because dd2 doesn't get to make friends in a big way with dd1's friend, so she isn't upset when dd1 is invited and dd2 isn't. And it means that dd1 can play/work with her friends without the feeling that dd2 will take over.

And how very unkind of your DS to say that he doesn't regard her as a friend.

He's only 10 years old. I am sure that most 10 year olds would find the tantrumming sibling of their best friend very annoying and wouldn't consider them a friend.

OP YANBU. Your friend is being ridiculous and is letting her experience as a child blind her to the fact that her older daughter is not being allowed to have friendships seperate to her sister. Its not healthy. And will be storing up huge resentments.

Lovecat Of course she is sacrificing the younger child - she constantly has to tag along to playdates where she is clearly not wanted just by the OP's DS but by the OP too.

Really quite horrible. Poor little girl. She hasn't been given the opportunity to have her own friend because OP and her mother are friends so she just has to fit in like a third wheel. an encumbrance. It sounds as though OP's DS makes it clear he doesn't like her too which is probably the reason behind the bad behaviour, not the result of it. :(

It's a really tricky situation when family friendships and childhood friends are blurred like that.

I wonder if you could suggest that her mum does something 'special' with FD2 another day and that you will look after FD1 to make that happen? So rather than it being a special treat for FD1, it's a special treat for FD2 because it's not that nice for her having to be a spare part/the youngest 'pest' all the time? But the end result is the same - that your DS and FD1 get some time to play together without FD2 being around.

The thought of the resentment building up does bother me.

FD2 can be difficult but I still adore both girls and would hate to see one cut the other off. I also think that BF is heading for a lot of trouble as FD1 hits her teens. I sometimes wonder if FD2 will be expected to join in when FD1 starts going out with boys!

Herc, what a load of nonsense.

Two women are friends. They get together with their children, of which there are 3. The dynamic that is caused in this particular scenario is unfortunate, but its hardly an uncommon situation.

Or should all mothers be banned from socialising with other mothers incase their kids feel left out?

I apologise if I have given the impression that I don't want FD2 around. That's not the case, and have quite happily looked after without FD1 around.

FD2's behaviour is the same all the time with her frequent meltdowns, not just when DS is around.

Actually, the older daughter is not being allowed to have a friendship separate to her mother, really. The whole social arrangement is because the mothers are friends. The older children have been forced to be 'BFs' and the younger child just has to fit in. And is obviously already unhappy about it all. :(

For those of you saying OPs DS is 'only 10' - WTAF? 10 year olds don't get a free pass on unkindness. If my 10 year old was cruel to a friend's younger sibling I would be mortified. Two of her close friends have younger siblings and she is very happy to have the siblings round to play as well as the girls her own age.

I've just re-read the OP and there is a very telling phrase in there - OP wants the younger daughter to learn 'a life lesson'. It all sounds very petty, very mean, and very like playground exclusion.

Herc, I have a feeling you are projecting here. You are reading the OPs posts so that they tell you what you want to hear.

The friend told the two older children that life is unfair sometimes. IE, a life lesson. The OP is pointing out that it is unfair that the younger child appears to be excluded from these life lessons.

And the only person to blame for the lack of friendships in the two girls lives is their mother. Not the OP and not OPs DS.

HercShipwright - is BF telling the 2 older children the life isn't fair and they should just put up with it not expecting them to learn a life lesson too? And that is what BF is expecting.

I have suggested what I thought was a compromise where FD1 and DS meet up when FD2 is (already) doing something else, and then they continue to play together when we all meet up.

Well if you've offered to have the 10yr old alone & that's a no, I don't think that there is anything else you can do.

Was the daughter even asked?

Maybe she's not as bothered about the friendship as your son?

Thank you Panda. That makes MUCH more sense than how I tried to explain it!

YANBU, and neither is your DS.

I have two DC, three years apart. Playdates are tricky because our house is tiny so it's hard for the child with a friend to take themselves away from everybody else. It doesn't happen often - I'm one of those who hates having other children in the house (partly because the house is so small!) - but when it does the child without the friend is expected to keep out of the way of the child with the friend. They understand that they have to treat their sibling the way they want to be treated themselves.

The unfortunate thing in your situation is that the FD2 never gets to have her own playdate, so it's not a reciprocal thing. It would make the most sense in this situation that you have FD1 over without FD2 once a week or so, and you and BF meet up of an evening or when the kids are at school, so that FD2 doesn't ever need to feel like a spare part.

FD1 is really going to start resenting her sister if your friend is so insistent that FD2 is always included in everything, and that would be really sad if they otherwise get on well.

Herc - the fault here lies squarely at the feet of the BF. She is the one that has not allowed other friendships to develop for FD2. If she won't ever have anyone else to play, then FD2 is forced into the role of the spare part. It's not the OP's fault (or her DS's) at all.

Herc - the fault here lies squarely at the feet of the BF. She is the one that has not allowed other friendships to develop for FD2. If she won't ever have anyone else to play, then FD2 is forced into the role of the spare part. It's not the OP's fault (or her DS's) at all.