School did not ask for permission to give child injection

[puddingsforsandy]

Child is 14 years. He has a plaster on his arm. He casually says he had an injection at school. I told him I don't remember signing permission slip. He says "oh the teacher said we don't need parental consent for this".

I have checked the slip and it's for immunisation for:
Tetanus, Diphtheria, Polio and Men C.

I don't know how to feel. Would they not ask for permission from parents?

DD (15 - these jabs are year 10) brought home this week a letter (from NHS not school), a leaflet 'Immunisations at secondary school' - your questions answered, one specifically on MenC and two consent forms (one for the Tet/dip/polio, the other for MenC booster). These forms requested details of gp, adverse reactions, nhs number, when/if previous immunisation. On the other consent sections for parent or child .She explained to me that they were competent to consent for themselves (which at her school they probably all are)- she filled in most of the form herself, she knows perfectly well she's not had adverse reactions to previous injections (other than being phobic and hating them but having the sense to have them anyway).

I'm not sure what happens if a parent refuses consent but the child wants the vaccination, or VV. I would hope that in this case they would assess the child's competence and their will would prevail - it's their body. Someone upthread said 'What if for some reason you were against immunisation' - don't get any jabs yourself then, and talk through the issues with your child beforehand but ultimately it should be their choice if they're competent.

I guess the details must vary between health authorities.

Tiggytape - thanks for clarifying, good.

However, in the OP's case it does seem as though, putting the consent part aside, the parents should have been informed in the same way I was: the forms sent home to ensure the factual details were all correct, so that the subject could be discussed, the child made aware if they'd had an adverse reaction when young if the subject hadn't arisen before etc.

Assault, really?

If the child is deemed capable of giving consent and they want the vaccine, they will be given it even if the parent objects. If the parents consent but the child refuses, the child would not be injected against their will.

Generally Gillick competent U16s those who have the sufficient maturity and understanding etc.....can consent to medical treatment ( that is considered to be in their best interests). It is actually more of an assent to treatment.

This can be of utility, eg where a medical team want to transplant and the parents are for their own reasons against it, and the eg 14 year old girl wants the treatment.

Although encouraged to be involved and take part in decision making, they are still largely unable to refuse treatment when a parent and medical team feel it is in their best interests.

The vaccine case should never have gone to court it was a disagreement between parents that drove it there - and in reality if the girls knew better they would not have attended their appointment (at court I believe) for the vaccine as nobody would ever pin them down for that particular indication.

Ask for a copy of the signed consent form from the supposedly Gillick competent teenager. That will be an interesting exercise. Sounds like many schools just line them up a la Soviet Russia and wop in the injections, paperwork or no paperwork.

I would also love to see if they are keeping records of the batch numbers, and whether parents have access to that information too. If not, it's all rather Pyong Yang.

Ultimately the Gillick test is meant to help children care for their own health and have access to the right treatments. Not to be used as a bureaucratic tool by school offices who can't be bothered to chase consent or collate paperwork properly.

I'm a teacher, my class are 12/13 year olds. For the recent HPV vaccinations, a consent form went home, but it was an NHS one rather than a school one. I am also pretty sure the child can over-rule what the parent has said if they feel strongly about it. I imagine they have a chat with the nurse in these situations. I don't know about the other injections, the date is always on the school calendar and website to inform parents (I don't know if consent is needed from parents as mine haven't had any yet).

By secondary age, I would expect all children to have been told if they are allergic to something, whether it is food, medication or whatever. I am planning a trip for a couple of weeks time and am taking a picnic for the children. I always ask if anyone is allergic to anything and they tell me - it is a 30 second job but I always have to spend ages trawling through medical forms just to check in case one child doesn't know what they're allergic to (which is potentially dangerous in my opinion).

The message seems to be setting lost even though its been mentioned a few times. The school is simply the venue, the school have no responsibility here, it's entirely the NHS. what the teacher told the op's son may or may not be correct but that irrelevent as it's the nurses who make the decisions.
School do have the hassle though of distributing and collecting forms.

Look on the bright side, OP. At least your child won't be dying of Tetanus, Diphtheria, Polio or Men C anytime soon, eh?

DS lost his signed form and didn't bother asking for another. The day before the vax I got a call asking if I had authorised it as he is not Gillick competent (LDs). Otherwise they would have obtained his consent on the day.

I would complain. dd2 has reacted to all jabs, for her last lot there was discussion with the hospital about if she needed to have them there. It was decided that she didnt but she ended up being rushed back to the surgery from nursery because the reaction took a while to come up.

dd2 probably wouldnt know any of that at 14 so wouldnt be able to tell them.

You have to be over 16 to consent to medical procedures otherwise a parent or guardian must sign the consent form too. A bit scary when your child hits 16 though and is faced with a life threatening illness and you have no say in what treatment they should have and have to ask your child for permission to speak with consultants and be present when the medical procedures are being discussed. Luckily my 16 year old has wanted me every step of the way but I feel for parents who don't have that bond. Bit of a scary moment when he decided he had had enough and was going to refuse more treatment and let nature take it's course. Thank God that was a short lived phase

'The vaccination can be given if the young person is deemed competent to give their consent.'

HOW can a person of 12 possibly be aware or the implications of these medical procedures?

I am genuinely, genuinely shocked at this. My son is 10, and would have no idea whatsoever if he ought to have a vaccination or not.

No idea.

I struggle, myself with the vaccination schedule for babies - and I resent the pressure we are put under as parents.

Given the nurses I have had to contend with over baby vaccinations, I am imagining them having an absolute field day as persuading a vulnerable child that this is the 'right thing to do' is going to be a total walkover.

I think I want to move countries.

I'm pretty sure they need permission. What if a child was allergic to something in the vaccine, the teachers/school wouldn't know but parents would and therefore wouldn't giver permission.

However, if you call the school I would imagine they have a signed permission slip from you your DS.

If they haven't and what he's saying is true I would go mad. It's a bit dangerous really (and I agree that unless there is a very good reason all children should be immunised)

I think power imbalance is a serious issue here. Children are routinely coerced into giving fingerprints for school biometrics systems and so on, and to prevent coercion the Government tightened rules. Yet here you have medical procedures happening without what I feel is due diligence. And I am about as pro vaccination as they come.

I am almost 100 percent certain that a registered nurse would not have vaccinated your child without a signed consent form.The reason I am saying this is because those vaccines have to be recorded on the consent form.There is also a check list on the consent form with regards to allergies medical history etc which is gone through with the child before the vaccine is opened.The form is also signed by the give nurse who is accountable for her practice and could be struck off the register for misconduct.
Yes a child can consent to treatment but I'm fairly sure that in school it would not have been given without your consent. Certainly in my area vaccination would not be given without parental consent.Infact all the nurses in my team ask the question is that mums /dads signature.
I personally feel you need to have a chat with your child and find out if he forged your signature,You can also contact the school nurse team the school will have the number Explain what has happened and arrange to see a copy of the consent form.
This vaccination campaign is a big deal and lots of training has gone in to organising it.No vaccination team is going to want to be messing about and giving vaccinations to young people without the proper authorisation.
As was said up thread teachers and school are only the venue so there is no way a teacher should have said that consent is not neccesarily.
Assessing a child's intellectual capacity to consent to vaccination is not something a nurse can do in the five minute slot they have to give the vaccination.My personal rule is no consent no vaccine young people can always get them done later at catch up clinics or gp.This is not life threatening treatment an extra few weeks is not going to make a lot of difference either way.

Is it one of those you have to opt out forms? So, you might have thought you weren't consenting by not returning the form, but you were because you had to positively refuse? I think the weigh in business in Year 5 was like that.

In school a few years ago we were having the first cervical cancer jab at 14 (as part of the catch-up programme, we were supposed to have it at 12), and my best friend's mum had refused her permission to have it without telling her. So she queued up with us, gave her name, only to be told "your mum hasn't consented".

Friend's mum was convinced that vaccines are the devil's work and, I kid you not, "If God intends for her to get ill, it will happen" . Friend thought her mum was crazy and demanded the injection, and was allowed it because she signed a piece of paper saying she had consented to it, which they used to overrule her mum's lack of consent.

Young people should be allowed to consent to medical treatment and vaccines above a certain age, and they should be encouraged to research the benefits and risks themselves. However in this case, the school should've told you that they would be getting vaccinated.

OP, it would be an interesting exercise to as your ds how he reacted to previous injections and vaccinations. To see if he just assumes he was ok or if he knows he was ok or if there were any problems...

Because I can imagine that for some people, if vaccines when the dc were young were a problem (but not a massive scary problem as mentioned earlier) or say a sensitivity to something has arisen after the child had their vaccination, or even you've told your dc about a problem but they forgot or when the teacher said that the jab is safe they assume that will mean it is safe for them despite previous issues etc. Then this is one of those times where the child might not know their medical history well enough to know they shouldn't have it or that they need to have it in a hospital. And if you don't get a notification home then you don't get the chance to tell or remind them about that - because it's very easy to forget or not realise that the jabs are happening today/this week/this year - when dc are very young it's easy to be aware of the vaccination schedule, much easier to lose track of it as they get older!

And as said - easy for them to assume that they are gillick competent but that's not going to be of much comfort if there is a problem that could have easily been prevented by notifying the parents.

As it has happened I do think it is worth raising your concerns with the school - might help somebodyin the year below. And if they haven't put it on the letter then asking for the batch number sounds a sensible thing to do.

At 14 most children would be considered to be gillick competent, teenagers absolutely have the same rights to autonomy and confidentiality as adults, in most cases. There is no legal requirement for written and signed consent either- although it is better for arse covering reasons. I really don't see hoe anyone has done anything wrong here- your son consented, he is old enough to do so, he was given the injection.

I'm really shocked at those of you saying your children don't know their medical histories. They really really should. From their early teens they are able to visit a doctor or a&e and the whole thing be kept confidential if they ask. They really should know about serious medical history. I was in the contraceptive pill and migraine tablets from age 14 without my parents knowing (complicated).

"Assault, really?"

Yes, an injection for which there is no consent is an assault and criminal charges can be brought. As the military found out (though I'm not sure any prosecutions ensued) when they attempted to bring in compulsory pre-deployment jabs.

Tht's why sandiy's post is so good. There is a great deal of planning into getting the legalities right. Absence of objection is well known to be not the same as consent, and is not adequate. Consent from under-16s is possible, but someone competent has to assess if they are individually competent (possible, but time consuming and unlikely therefore to be achievable in a school setting unless the time allowed per pupil is increased significantly).

I think something needs to be cleared up.Nurses that vaccinate children in schools are proffesionals.It has been suggested that we stick vaccine into young people wily nilly,This is not the case.Every child comes for vaccination with a signed consent form which has previously been sent into school by the child's parents the admin person then checks this person off a list which comes from child health.
The young person waits until a nurse is free whilst being supervised and supported by support staff,The young person then brings themselves over to the nurse. We check name and date of birth with the young person then check consent,The form is signed by the young person and parent/ guardian.On the consent form are details filled in by parents of medical conditions/history and also allergies.We run through a quick check list how are you feeling could you be pregnant to make sure that it is safe to vaccinate.We then open the vaccine remove the batch number and use by date sticker and attach it to the consent form,This is a requirement as all vaccines must be traceable.Give the vaccine,in the non writing arm,record the date and time on the consent form and sign our name to say we have given the vaccination.By signing that form as registered nurses we are commiting on paper that we have administered that vaccine as per protocol.The child is given a leaflet and basic aftercare advice and asked to take a seat for 5-10 minutes.These forms are collected at the end of the session doctors and child health are informed.
If children refuse vaccination we do not give. Children without consent forms are not vaccinated.I will however obtain verbal consent by phone from a parent if there has been a problem after first running through the medical questionnaire.
As I said earlier it is most unlikely that a registered nurse will give a vaccine without consent as it is not life or death, All the forms are sent home for parents to complete however, we cannot be responsible for who completes the form or the information provided we can only work with the information we have available to us at that time.
Believe me no nurse wants to be hauled up in front of the Nmc for misconduct or lose their job so we are every bit as careful as we should be when working in the community as we are in hospital.
Most schools also send out parent mail reminders about vaccination sessions again we cannot be responsible for parents not reading this or young people not informing parents.
Yes a young person can consent for themselves but I wonder how many nurses would be willing to accept this and vaccinate anyway because Unfortunatly we live in a litigious society I certainly would nt for the exact reason this thread started Some parents will not be happy and as a mum I'm not sure how I would feel.

I gave consent for dd2 to have her cervial cancer vacination well i think it was opt out rather than consent , OP are you sure you were not informed of the booster you should have got a letter, yanbu to be annoyed though but check that you have not missed a letter from him, this is part of the normal programme they all get boosters at school