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AIBU?

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Original poster

To really want to say something to these abortion protestors?

999 replies

Crocodileclip · 07/03/2014 18:10

Firstly, I know I will probably never say anything as I appreciate that the protestors have the right to protest but it really pisses me off.

A small group of people have been protesting outside the Marie Stoppes clinic in Belfast since it opened in 2012. They stand outside the door on the days it is open holding anti abortion posters and trying to gather signatures for a petition. I pass them on my way to get to the station at home time and every time it annoys me. I can't imagine how offputting they would be if you were young and scared and just wanting some advice. Lots of pics of aborted foetuses etc. I find it intimidating enough myself and I am just walking past. I actually put my head down and walk quicker so that nobody asks me to sign the petition.

I'm currently pregnant with my second and am lucky never to have been in a position where abortion was an option but am of the opinion that there are situations in which it may be the best option available.

The clinic itself operates within NI law so only offers abortions up to 9 weeks and as far as I know is the only such clinic in Northern Ireland. I think I would be ok with the protestors doing their stuff elsewhere in the city centre it is the fact that it is just outside the only entrance to the clinc that makes me irrationally angry. Does this happen at other Marie Stoppes clinics elsewhere in the UK?

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 12/03/2014 16:42

Pomme, you seem to have confused yourself. You said "You are by denying women abortion, denying them the same reproductive freedoms that men have." Now, if you recognise that men can not get pregnant then it should be fairly obvious that they can not have an abortion so you aren't denying them reproductive freedoms that men have.

HopAlong then said "the right to abortion to term does go along with a society that values women as much as men and respects their capacity to make informed, sensible choices."

and I asked "When does a man ever have to make an informed, sensible decision about his pregnancy?"

To which you replied "When he shoots his sperm into a womens vagina without using contraception?"

I asked if you thought his ehaculation made it his pregnancy and now you are talking about a man being involved in a pregnancy via his sperm . Now unless you are going to start arguing that the man's contribution to the pregnancy ie his sperm gives him rights over the pregnancy eg. The right to make the woman terminate (and I very much doubt that you are) I'm not sure what direction you are trying to take this. What point are you trying to make?

bumbleymummy · 12/03/2014 16:45

Noodle,

'massive blob of cancer' Do you mean a tumour?

"lump of living cells" Do you think we are all lumps of living cells? You know that there are quite a few differences between normal human cells and cancer don't you?

Almond

  1. You think it's ok to stop a kidney donation halfway through? Ie transplant the kidney, let it start functioning for the other person and then take it back? Really? Or just for the sake of your argument?

  2. Can you give another example of an organ donation situation where the organ is already in use by another party during the process of donation?

  3. I didn't ask about an egg and sperm turning into a foetus. I asked if you think the egg/sperm is part of the donation.

You also said earlier "the thing that has been donated by the woman would more accurately be the placenta and umbilical cord"

This is incorrect. The placenta begins to form after implantation of the blastocyst. The outer layer of the blastocyst forms the outer layer of the placenta. The umbilical cord comes from the embryo.

  1. I'm actually not sure which of my views you find extreme or bizarre tbh. Or do you just find anything that isn't pro-choice extreme or bizarre because it isn't as common (particularly on MN)?

"your issues with the female body" What would they be? Are you again referring to my use of 'donated her uterus' when I've been discussing someone else's analogy comparing abortion to donating a uterus?

bumbleymummy · 12/03/2014 16:47

last para - comparing abortion to donating an organ*

bumbleymummy · 12/03/2014 17:35

post to pomme at 16.42 ejaculation*

MaidOfStars · 12/03/2014 17:40

You think it's ok to stop a kidney donation halfway through? Ie transplant the kidney, let it start functioning for the other person and then take it back? Really? Or just for the sake of your argument?

Yes, it's OK to stop a kidney donation halfway through. However, how you i.e. that process is not, in fact, the correct i.e.

Stopping a kidney donation halfway through is awakening on the surgical bed and preventing them going any further, withdrawing c The process of 'donation' is

MaidOfStars · 12/03/2014 17:41

Stupid phone.

...withdrawing consent. The process of 'donation' is entirely separate to the process of 'transplantation'.

HadABadDay2014 · 12/03/2014 17:59

www.patient.co.uk/doctor/termination-of-pregnancy

Risk to the mother's life.
Risk of grave, permanent injury to the mother's physical/mental health (allowing for reasonably foreseeable circumstances).
Substantial risk that, if the child were born, it would suffer such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped. Such TOPs must be conducted in an NHS hospital.

bumbleymummy · 12/03/2014 18:04

Maid, so are you comparing abortion to organ transplantation or organ donation?

Had, are you posting that in response to something?

MaidOfStars · 12/03/2014 18:08

Organ donation.

Refuse to donate a kidney - life lost.
Refuse to donate a uterus - life lost.

Right to withdraw consent for either donation at any time.

bumbleymummy · 12/03/2014 18:14

Maid, so you are comparing it to donation then. Ok, can you give me an example of an organ donation where the organ in question is already in use by another party during the process of donation?

MaidOfStars · 12/03/2014 18:40

Ok, can you give me an example of an organ donation where the organ in question is already in use by another party during the process of donation?

Not off the top of my head but I'll have a think.

But why is it relevant? I cannot ask for a kidney back because it falls outside the remit of my right to bodily autonomy by virtue of no longer being in or part of my body. The effect on the user of my kidney is not a factor. I can ask for my uterus back because it is in and part of my body. The effect on the user of my uterus is not a factor.

bumbleymummy · 12/03/2014 18:45

Ok, come back to me on it. It is relevant irt whether the uterus is in the process of being 'donated' if the woman is pregnant or whether it has already been 'donated'.

MaidOfStars · 12/03/2014 18:48

It is relevant irt whether the uterus is in the process of being 'donated' if the woman is pregnant or whether it has already been 'donated'

Why? Expand?

mustbetimefortea · 12/03/2014 18:53

It's very sad bumbley that despite being a woman yourself you place such little value on women's health, wellbeing and contribution to society - other than as incubators.

bumbleymummy · 12/03/2014 18:57

Come back to me with an example and I'll let you know :)

must, it is not that people 'place such little value on women's health, wellbeing and contribution to society' it's that they value the other life that is in question as well. You could say that it is quite sad that so many people put so little value on that.

TheBody · 12/03/2014 18:58

not read the whole thread but agree op think these people are massive cunts and shouldn't be allowed to demonstrate right outside the clinic.

personally I think abortion is every woman's right for whatever her reason, no business of a doctor to ask well into late pregnancy.

mustbetimefortea · 12/03/2014 19:13

bumbley but in this situation the value of one inevitably has to be rated over the other and you along with the the protestors feel that women are of lesser value.

MaidOfStars · 12/03/2014 19:15

Come back to me with an example and I'll let you know

Is that to me? I don't really appreciate obliqueness - it has no place in a serious and thoughtful debate - so I'll repeat.

You asserted that it was relevant whether we consider the uterus in pregnancy as 'in the process of being donated' or 'having completed the process of donation'. I asked you why it was relevant because, bizarrely, when people say 'it's relevant', I imagine there is some justification for this statement, perhaps a point ensuing.

bumbleymummy · 12/03/2014 19:29

"one inevitably has to be rated over the other and you along with the the protestors feel that women are of lesser value."

Or you could think that they both have an equal right to life...

Maid, yes, it is relevant. Come back to me with an example and I will expand on it. Or do you want to say that there is no example where in the process of donation the organ is already in use by another party?(ie admit that 'donating a uterus' is not actually the same as organ donation)

MaidOfStars · 12/03/2014 20:17

Maid, yes, it is relevant. Come back to me with an example and I will expand on it
Is this how debate works with you? 'I won't tell you, ner near ner'. I don't see its relevance, you appear to. It's puzzling why I must accept its relevance, simply on your say so.

Or do you want to say that there is no example where in the process of donation the organ is already in use by another party?(ie admit that 'donating a uterus' is not actually the same as organ donation)

Direct blood transfusion.

BackOnlyBriefly · 12/03/2014 20:19

Or you could think that they both have an equal right to life...

So.. suppose it all goes dangerously wrong and the safest option for the mother is to terminate the pregnancy rather than wait and see what happens.

What would be your position on that, bumbleymummy?

I know what follows logically from what you've said, but I don't want to put words in your mouth.

bumbleymummy · 12/03/2014 20:21

I think it is fair to ask someone else for an example of something if they are insisting that one thing can be compared to another despite them being very different. No 'ner, her, ner' involved. Is this how you try to avoid difficult questions?

Blood is not an organ.

MaidOfStars · 12/03/2014 20:46

I think it is fair to ask someone else for an example of something if they are insisting that one thing can be compared to another despite them being very different. No 'ner, her, ner' involved. Is this how you try to avoid difficult questions?

It's not fair to ask someone to provide an example to illustrate a point you are making when they have no idea of what point you are actually making.

I wasn't trying to catch you out. You asserted something that sounded interesting and possibly constructive/helpful to the debate and I asked what you meant.

That is where your 'not telling, ner ner ner' comes in.

Right, so now I guess I know that the point you are wanting to make that is somehow contingent on me providing an example for you only works when the donation involves visceral tissue? Why is direct blood transfusion not an appropriate example for you to illustrate your still withheld point? It is a bodily tissue that can be donated at the same time as the recipient receives the benefit.

bumbleymummy · 12/03/2014 21:08

BOB, where two lives are threatened and only one life can be saved doctors are obliged to save that life. Nothing unusual there. That doesn't necessarily mean they have to actively terminate the other life either.

Maid, I'm not asking you to give an example to illustrate a point I'm making. I'm asking you to give an example to show how being pregnant is equivalent to the process of donating an organ which is the analogy that has been presented and which you are supporting. I'm asking for an example of an organ donation because that is the analogy that you(and others) have been using. It's just to illustrate one of the flaws in the 'organ transplant analogy'.

MaidOfStars · 12/03/2014 21:21

Ok, well, let's broaden the parameters of the thought experiment to include blood as an organ then Hmm

So, during a direct blood transfusion, where I am donating my blood at the same time as the recipient is using it to live, am I allowed to withdraw consent at any point? I think yes, do you think no?

And when you said that it was relevant to determine whether the uterus was in the process of donation or had already been donated, you meant that it wasn't relevant and you had no further point to make?