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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that 45 year old British citizen should know what I'm talking about.....

186 replies

Bekindtoyourknees · 05/03/2014 13:28

when I mention the wars in Slovenia, Bosnia, Croatia etc?

His excuse: 'I wasn't there, so why should I know about them?'

I thought there was nothing left to shock me at work, seems I was wrong Sad

OP posts:
kim147 · 05/03/2014 20:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

littlewhitebag · 05/03/2014 20:45

I am beginning to suspect this thread is all bluster and no-one else has any idea what is going on either. Grin It's making me feel a bit better!

lljkk · 05/03/2014 20:50

ok, LWB (since you asked)

The borders of the country we call "Ukraine" have moved back and forth hundreds of miles in the last 150 yrs, especially following specific wars (Poland has similar history). Britain was involved in some of these 19th century conflicts (Crimean war, anyone? Florence nightingale?) Things settled down during the cold war, after WWII. In a drunken moment around 1954 the Soviet leader Kruschev "gifted" a big piece of land (roughly called Crimea) of Russia to Ukraine. In 1989-91 when USSR collapsed everyone thought Russia would take that bit back -- but Yeltsin didn't bother.

Since collapse of USSR Ukraine has struggled with corrupt versions of democracy; things seemed to improve after the Orange revolution of 2004 but degenerated again quickly to usual corrupt ways. Things came to a head when Ukraine economy collapsed and Ukraine was torn between better economic links to EU or to Russia, with each side offering a bit of money but Russia ultimately offering more. The predominantly Russian-speaking East keep voting for Russian-oriented type leaders -- like the guy who just got booted out.

Russians in Russia & Russian-speakers in East Ukraine are being told on TV that the new revolution leaders in Kiev are fascists, neo-Nazis who will try to crush their culture, persecute ethnic minorities and join NATO so that Ukraine can turn back on Russia. Meanwhile there are ethnic minorities in East, including Ukraines & (Tartars) who are very fearful of Russian domination.

The Russians have military presence in Eastern Ukraine already (with official permission) which they have beefed up in last few weeks, while self-appointed militias made up of Russian-speaking Ukraine nationals have started to take over key public places (with real guns in hand).

There are a lot of peaceful protests going on both sides, lots of blunder blast, too. I think Russian is out to punish Ukraine to make a point to everyone else what Thugs they (the Russians) are.

There are different versions of events (I only listen to BBC so I only know the bits BBC has mentioned).

SuiGeneris · 05/03/2014 20:50

So Sparkle you don't care that people are dying in Syria, that the first major conflict of 21st century may be about to break out in Ukraine... Would you have not cared about people being rounded up and put onto trains to labour camps in the Thirties? Really? Have you no compassion? What exactly do you care about?

I am stunned.

RedToothBrush · 05/03/2014 20:51

Sarajevo is a beautiful wonderful thought provoking city. Bit of a pain in the backside to get to currently but well worth the trouble. Would go back in a heart beat.

Bosnia on the whole is an amazing country tucked away in the middle of Europe that deserves to be rated far more as a holiday destination. I rate it as one of my favourite in the world. Its more than just somewhere that a war happened and a world war started.

I sadly hear that there is rising tensions there currently due to the high unemployment rate which is a direct result of the way government institutions have ground to a halt because of ongoing issues between ethnic groups. I find it sad and worrying that its in danger of sinking back into trouble unless a way can be found to resolve the issues.

But the war aspect of it, means, I find the fact that people are so completely ignorant to it, very depressing.

I've also visited Serbia, and I have to say that it blew my preconceptions of the country out of the water. I viewed it as 'the big bad wolf' and really only travelled through it, in order to get to Sarajevo.

Instead, I encountered some of the most friendly people I have ever met anywhere in the world. It made me realise the difference between the average person and leaders more than anywhere else I've ever been. Some of it was depressing and hard to take in. When faced with places that our country bombed in my lifetime and the human face of that it makes you question things and realise just how much, even within our relative freedom, we are subjects of propaganda.

It was challenging and a privilege to visit both. Its also interesting to know how much, or indeed how little in some cases, both countries have moved on since the war.

I wished that people were aware of the wars that go on around them, but also took the time to look beyond that and how it effects us now. And to be interested in other countries other than their own. I hate the mentality of many Brits abroad for this reason. (You shouldn't have to have a war go on to make an effort to know something about a country.)

The most interesting thing I found about both Serbia and Bosnia, wasn't really the war though. Its just how much the EU has helped subsequently and how much it is respected. Both are working towards closer ties, and potentially membership which will hopefully help with future stability in the region. The Ukraine crisis has similar echos. Yet, in this country, we take the EU so much for granted and often so many people disregard how important it is.

Like other people have said, all things and countries are interconnected and don't exist in isolation.

littlewhitebag · 05/03/2014 20:59

lljkk Thank you. I confess that i still don't really understand. I fear my brain is missing the 'making sense of major world events' bit. I will continue to apply myself and see if i can work it out.

ThatBloodyWoman · 05/03/2014 21:10

I wasn't talking about studying war DoJo.

I know fuck all about history, modern or ancient.

I was talking about just acknowledging and being aware if it happening, and the absolute basics we all heard on the news, both at the time and since!

I went to Dubrovnik before the war Red.Beautiful place.

Lovely people, not so very different to any of us.

kim147 · 05/03/2014 21:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedToothBrush · 05/03/2014 21:24

Yeah, I've been to Dubrovnik as well.

You are bang on, when you say Lovely people, not so very different to any of us. and thats really where it hits you hard.

We rarely see the rest of the world in terms of 'they are like us'. They are just foreign and often labelled as 'bad'.

I'm watching whats going on in Ukraine with interest. The idea that Russia is all bad is not one I'm completely buying. (Putin is the problem... not the people...) And I can well see a lot of reason in why a lot of Russian speaking Ukrainians might have real cause to feel afraid by the revolution.

I think we all do well to see war not as black and white sides, but a while bunch of people caught up in a situation that has gone beyond their control.

ThatBloodyWoman · 05/03/2014 21:31

Yes, Red, I don't think it was the carefree 20 something woman walking down the street chatting with her friend, that I saw, who could be blamed for any of this.

Yet she may be one of those real people, just like us, who suffered in the war and maybe died.

BillyBanter · 05/03/2014 21:31

But that would never happen here - would it? So why does it happen in other countries?

Genocide? Yes, it could happen here. It could happen anywhere. It could happen in the space of 6 months if the will was there. It's certainly not because individuals in those countries are somehow lacking something individuals here do possess.

www.crimemuseum.org/crime-library/genocide

The UK is usually hovering around stage 2 or 3, as are many other countries.

BillyBanter · 05/03/2014 21:31

www.crimemuseum.org/crime-library/genocide

BillyBanter · 05/03/2014 21:36

"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY."

--Goering at the Nuremberg Trials

RedToothBrush · 05/03/2014 21:56

We do mistakenly think the press in the UK is free from propaganda. Its not. And its frightening when you realise just how true Goering's words above are.

kim147 · 05/03/2014 22:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedToothBrush · 05/03/2014 22:40

The DM do it.

So do other sources that you might think more trustworthy too though. Those ones scare me more actually.

Some stuff coming out in relation to Scottish independence is really troubling. Consider it in the context of Goering words...

sparkleshine · 05/03/2014 23:02

Oh dear I didn't mean anything bad by what I said. It's not that I don't have compassion or sympathy or anything like that for what happens in the world, same as the devastating floods etc that we've had here.
Just that politics, war and religion go right over my head. That simple explanation mentioned by another poster about Ukraine/Russia sort of makes sense but not really to me.

I don't even get the whole left wing and right wing thing. The whole IRA Ireland Protestant and catholic has been explained in the past but doesn't stick.
Now give me a human body and I could tell you most of what goes on and where.
We all have our weaknesses and interests on subjects and I'm not embarrassed by that fact. Doesn't mean I don't care, just don't understand even when I try.

NobodyLivesHere · 05/03/2014 23:15

I think most people over a certain age would know the Balkan war happened, would have heard the name milosevic. You are not being unreasonable to think most people would have at least that much awareness, but I think it is unreasonable for people with no political interest to know much more than the basics.
My ex thinks me horrendously ignorant and I have no idea about the weather and how storms are formed and cold fronts and all that stuff, I find his lack of knowledge on literature baffling and weird (40 years old and had never heard of Charlotte Bronte)..but we all have different interests.

sparkleshine · 05/03/2014 23:16

Hope people haven't taken my comment the wrong way really. I'm being honest. I hardly watch the news at all. Just pick things up as I go along. Just googled Syria as mentioned before.
I'm probably not gonna vote because the country is crap whoever runs it to be honest.
Millions of people being let in, getting a house that I can't afford to buy. Benefits issues. Those things I care about. How the NHS I work for is used and abused and short staffed.
I care about crime and world disasters and all sorts. But when it comes to the ins and outs of politics alongside religion along with war it baffles me.
Whether that all makes sense I'm not sure but to me it does

LRDtheFeministDragon · 05/03/2014 23:23

It would be nice if people knew.

If this is really about the conflict in Russia/Ukraine, Ithink, TBH, that the amount of scaremongering and silly, 'OMG it's like the cold war' rhetoric about this in the Western press has made people react in odd ways.

As someone (kim?) said upthread, what about there being discrepancies in how we view (eg) countries in Africa and Europe, is very true.

I also feel obscurely angry - and maybe I am wrong to feel this way - that I hear people constantly pronouncing about Russia/Ukraine as if we are somehow morally obligated to have some kind of political opinon on it. My in-laws and friends in Russia don't have that. My friends in Ukraine don't have that. They are all saying they don't know what the heck will happen or how it will work out. Yet so many people in the UK seem to feel it's somehow morally uplifting to nod seriously and say 'oh, yes, the situation in the Crimea ...'.

I think it is misguided concern at best, and arrogant at worst.

It should be fine to say, sometimes, that you really don't understand a situation fully. And you're not there, and you're not familiar with it - so you don't know. I think we shouldn't stigmatize that. It's a lot more honest and a lot less fake.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 05/03/2014 23:24

'Millions of people being let in, getting a house that I can't afford to buy.'

Hello, Mr Farage. Nice day?

GoshAnneGorilla · 06/03/2014 00:02

"The IRA war thing"

Words fail me. OP YANBU.

However, LRD makes a very good point. I find some of the armchair discussions on Syria, by people who have never been, never met a Syrian, have no understanding of Syrian history or society, yet know allll about Syria to be absolutely infuriating.

cobaltcow · 06/03/2014 00:20

SuiGeneris
"So Sparkle you don't care that people are dying in Syria, that the first major conflict of 21st century may be about to break out in Ukraine... Would you have not cared about people being rounded up and put onto trains to labour camps in the Thirties? Really? Have you no compassion? What exactly do you care about? I am stunned."

Oh fuck off you sanctimonious buffoon!

BillyBanter · 06/03/2014 01:18

Oh, sparkle, I was behind you until the xenophobic shite about MILLIONS being let in and stealing your house.

FadBook · 06/03/2014 03:48

Yes, it was a complicated set of wars, and I don't think the OP expected her colleague to be able to rattle off exactly which ethnicities were fighting against or with one another in the different constituent republics, but you'd expect him to have a vague sense of what made 'the former Yugoslavia' no longer be 'Yugoslavia' - genocide, ethnic cleansing, the siege of Sarajevo and the Srebrenica massacre. That's just general knowledge, surely?

There are several words in the above paragraph I would need to look up the meaning of before being able to understand the context of what is being said. It's confusing.

I'm an educated early 30's female, working class back ground, news at 10 on every night when growing up. I have asked questions over the years about general wars / conflict (which may have included the one the OP talked of) and have received a fairly standard response of: "it's quite confusing, I don't quite understand it myself". This is from people 15/20 years older than me.

I've read all the thread and I'm more knowledgable now but still confused, mainly by words used, left/right wing, city names that I cant automatically link to a country i know.

If I were to google, I know I will be more bamboozled by more information in the form opinion vs fact, terminology and words I again don't understand or use in day to day conversation and place names (my geographic knowledge outside of the uk is shockingly poor). It makes my learning harder - it's not that I don't care, I get very upset by conflict of any kind; but feel I can't do anything about it - it's unlikely to come up in conversation and so I choose not to expand my knowledge on the subject area.

Perhaps I am lazy, in my middle of the night musings, I will reflect on this.