to re-pose the radio 4 question - Is childcare good for CHILDREN?

[IceBeing]

Our dearest Justine and some bloke from the family childcare trust were on radio 4 this morning talking about childcare costs.

They focussed on Mums who would like to work more but cannot afford to due to childcare costs, and a proposal to make more free time available for 2-3 yos.

They both made a compelling case that this situation was bad for the Mums (because they want to work and can't).

They made a reasonable (but by no means obviously correct) argument that it was better for the economy for these Mums to work.

But they were then asked something along the lines of:

" Is increased access to childcare good for children? I mean if it isn't there isn't really any point? "

And they didn't answer AT ALL. They went back to the previous economic answer. Well actually Justine didn't get a chance to respond - so no accusation in her specific direction!

But what is the answer?

Is taking a child out of the home and putting them in nursery for an additional period between 2 and 3 yo (which was the proposal being discussed) actually good for the child?

Do kids in nursery earlier do better/worse at school? Are they happier/less happy? Is this a simple case of happier mummy, happier toddler?

Usually the woman takes 9 months mat leave, and some one else covers her

Not in the NHS. The impact of maternity leave on a ward can be huge.

Potentially if a woman takes 4 weeks annual leave at the end of her pregnancy say at 36 weeks then 12 months Mat leave followed by the accrued 6/7 weeks of annual leave then she will be out of the workplace for 14 months.
Im not suggesting this is wrong, far from it but as Pobble says this has an impact .

There is also the question of needing to be updated and Mandatory training . 14 months is massive in terms of change within the NHS.
Any longer- 3 years and a Return to Practice course would be needed to allow a Nurse or Midwife to return to the register.
I cant say I have seen any opportunities for RTP courses here for about 10 years.
These are the logistics that are never discussed.

I work for the NHs and I'm planning on taking a year off.

This means me having to use 7 weeks of A/L and also taking 9 weeks of unpaid leave.

I think 12 months is a very long time to be away from an NHS environment as like has been said, so many things change in that time.

I had 14 months off in total. A years mat leave plus annual leave. Going back to the NHS afterwards was really hard. Took me months to get back into it. A lot changes in a very short space of time.

And as said above, you can't take a long time off as you lose you registration and have to retrain.

Going back to the NHS afterwards was really hard. Took me months to get back into it. A lot changes in a very short space of time

Yes, I think going back to anything you will find as time moves on things change.

I mean, I am not sure what your getting at here?

YOu wish you didn't take off 14months? You want things to stand still while your away? I don't understand.

Everything moves on, even in the most staid of places.

But most importantly your child is moving on from being very co dependant to being less co dependant with every month. Which is a good thing isnt it? 14 months off, is a good amount of time to have off.

You see, there's so much variation in what people feel is the optimum time off. I actually had 3 months and 4 months respectively off for my maternity leaves as that was the norm then. I sometimes think 9 months or a year must be harder because separation anxiety peaks around then. I'm not suggesting a return to compulsory shorter leave- just highlighting the complexity of the issue... You are never going to get universal agreement because people have different views and opinions and employers will have their own wants and needs too.

I would say the more the child can express themselves and walk around and things is better than a small baby who cant tell you anything.

You are never going to get universal agreement because people have different views and opinions and employers will have their own wants and needs too

This is why it would be nice if it was universally recognised that small babies who can't express much should be with a primary care giver.

I agree Janey - people have warned me about the separation anxiety if I return to work when baby is a year old as opposed to me doing it when he's about 6 months.

My personal view though is that I jut couldn't imagine handing over such a small baby to someone else for such long periods of time.

I'm happy with my decision to go when he's one year old but I can't bear the thought of using a childminder for 4 days a week. Me and DH have discussed my worries about this quite a lot over the last few days (since I've been following this thread) and I think I'm just going to cut down my hours and we'll take the financial hit for a few years.

14 months is a good time off but the discussion above was also about the challenges of returning to work after this amount of leave.

There are advantages and challenges in every situation.

Where has it been suggested otherwise Buds ?
Anyone I know who has recently had a baby has been off for at least a year.

Being off for a year isn't easy though if you live in a household where both incomes are required.

Me and DH cannot run our house on just his salary and in the NHS I'm only on full maternity pay for 8 weeks and then my income starts to reduce. By the time baby is about 6 months old my income will be almost £1'000 less a month than what I'm used to which is a HUGE drop when the household requires both incomes.

In order for me to have a year off we have had to save and put aside £3'000 in order to cover the losses that will occur in my income during Maternity Leave. This £3'000 will cover costs from when baby is between 7-10 months old, and then my final two months off will be covered by my A/L.

We are lucky that we have been able to put aside this money (though it has taken us about 8 months) as a lot of other people aren't in a position to do so. I'm sure that a lot of women who return to work whilst the baby is still young have to do so because financially there is no other option.

Most people I know who've gone on Maternity have between 6-9 months off. Any longer is considered to be a privilege of sorts.

14 months is a good time off but the discussion above was also about the challenges of returning to work after this amount of leave

This. Which is what I was replying to. Since when did I say I wasn't happy with the time off I took?

It's all very well suggesting mums should have 2-3 years off. There are a whole host of reasons why this wouldn't work in
the NHS. Not least because we don't get maternity cover. Our work has to be up to date and we have to do so much mandatory study and practice hours to maintain our registration. If I was to leave and return to my job in three years time not only would I have to retrain I would had to get a job at a lower level and work my way back up again, which can take years. It's not just a simple, one size fits all solution.

Actually I don't know of any nurses I've worked with that have left to be sahm's after having kids. We've all come back in on way or another.

Pobble but I know several nurses who do the odd shift work in the evening or weekend to keep their hand in.

Maybe the NHS could look into update sessions whilst on maternity/paternity.

Maybe not everybody could be catered for but that isn't good reason not to try for other sectors.

The year off was a long time ago for me Writer
I doubt I could afford it now with the cost of living as it is.

You can already do Keep in Touch days in the NHS but I don't think that this would work for longer periods as the minimum is 450 hours in 3 years to maintain your registration.

Am talking about the suggestions of taking long periods off in the early years btw

Those who do the odd shift are usually bank Nurses/Midwives .
If they left their substantive post then all the benefits they accrue go with it, salary ,sick pay, Mat leave .

pobble - I've unfortunately experienced the opposite to you and seen many 'new moms' be forced into SAHP'ing against their wishes because of the problems they've come across regarding childcare.

A lot of nurseries/childminders have children on set days each week and most nurses I have come across have been refused set shifts by their managers and as a result there are no childcare options for them. Not many nurseries/childminders are happy to accommodate shift patterns and have the children very Ad-hoc and with very little notice from the parents when their child requires their service.

I'm lucky in that I work 9-5 so won't have this issue but it is a very true problem for a lot of nurses out there.

A friend of mine recently had a baby - and she is an EXCELLENT nurse, her career means everything to her, but unfortunately she is having to give it all up after 15 years because she's been refused set shifts and so can't set up a regular childcare arrangement. She's absolutely gutted and it's such a waste of a wonderful nurse.

Yep. And you have to sort your own mandatory training and pay for it. There are a lot of negatives to just doing agency work as opposed to being employed. Although the benefits are you can fit it around your life.

But that is 150 a year, bit more than 12 a month?

Couldn't you do 1 night shift/ shift a week when a partner was home?I'm sure that's what my friends did,I was quite envious as they were there pretty much all the time,kept their hand in and had a bit of extra cash.Maybe it was something else.

If I was any good with medical matters(which I'm not) I'd consider it myself.

My DS goes to my work nursery and even that doesn't allow us flexible shift patterns, he has to go the same days every week.

It's also hard to find a nursery that opens early enough.

Ah that must have been what it was,bank nursing.

They slipped back effortlessly though after.

A lot of us like being employed by a ward though, being part of a team. I would hate to work somewhere different each shift. Plus you wouldn't be able to re-enter at a senior level. It's swings and roundabouts. Some people like agency work. I wouldn't want to do it.

I work for NHS alongside nurses, similar shifts and had to put DD3 in ft nursery because my shift patterns change all the time although they give me 8weejs notice.

Apparently I do 18 hours a week but worked 2x 07.30-19.30 and then 3x23.30-08.00. Am getting the girls from school so rise at 2.30pm. Am knackered today.

There is very little flexibility when it comes to childcare problems so it's easier just to have child settled in a routine at nursery.

That's the kind of thing I think they should look at though.With a bit of flexibility....