to re-pose the radio 4 question - Is childcare good for CHILDREN?

[IceBeing]

Our dearest Justine and some bloke from the family childcare trust were on radio 4 this morning talking about childcare costs.

They focussed on Mums who would like to work more but cannot afford to due to childcare costs, and a proposal to make more free time available for 2-3 yos.

They both made a compelling case that this situation was bad for the Mums (because they want to work and can't).

They made a reasonable (but by no means obviously correct) argument that it was better for the economy for these Mums to work.

But they were then asked something along the lines of:

" Is increased access to childcare good for children? I mean if it isn't there isn't really any point? "

And they didn't answer AT ALL. They went back to the previous economic answer. Well actually Justine didn't get a chance to respond - so no accusation in her specific direction!

But what is the answer?

Is taking a child out of the home and putting them in nursery for an additional period between 2 and 3 yo (which was the proposal being discussed) actually good for the child?

Do kids in nursery earlier do better/worse at school? Are they happier/less happy? Is this a simple case of happier mummy, happier toddler?

georges I have personal opinions about the traits I've observed in children who have spent long periods in childcare from babyhood but I haven't expressed them because that would be judgemental, unhelpful for some parents to hear and irrelevant to the discussion.

I think you should say them Gold, people are very happy to say the differences in favour of children in nursery.

georgesdino I'm sorry for that grumpy response.

I can see how that would be your experience, I suppose my view is that the things you can observe at age 4 regarding fitting into the institution of school may not be all that important anyway in the long run. Most kids given a nurturing start (wherever that may be) seem adaptable.

I'm sure I've read a reputable study that said that in general children under three fared better when cared for by a parent first, then other family member, then childminder. Nursery/pre-school was recommended after the age of three. I must try and find it...

Clearly though its complicated. Some children would fare better in nursery from an earlier age if their home situation is stressful/unstimulating. Kids who don't go to nursery, learn to socialise at pre-school, they don't miss the opportunity.

I do think that the role of a mother/parent/caregiver is significantly undervalued by our society and can well believe findings from an earlier quoted research pointing out conversation/education is usually higher at home.

I think some people can make choices to stay at home with their kids (more than they currently do, eg by moving area), but many others can't, and so quality childcare must remain a priority.

I'd love to stay at home with dd, but financially cannot afford to. Our fixed monthly costs are £1800, DH earns £1400 after tax. I chose to have my dd, but it is financially impossible to keep a roof over our heads without me working. In my experience, the only mothers who have gone back very part time or not at all after the birth of their children, have well paid husbands. We are a dual income household, and need to stay that way. I feel guilty to leave her as I'm back at work in a month, and she'll be 7 months, but who's going to pay my bills if I don't go back?

Oxford Uni * Uni of London research and I'm sure there's been another similar, more recent study.

"Young children looked after by their mothers develop better than those cared for in nurseries, or by relatives or childminders, research suggests."

I was mistaken - this ranks parent, then nanny/childminder, then grandparent.

I'm not anti-nursery at all, but do feel that the arguments for mother/other childcare are very rarely made...

I think you should say them Gold, people are very happy to say the differences in favour of children in nursery.

I won't because, although I've only noticed things I perceive as negative, there may well be positives that I have missed and one person's observations aren't statistically significant.

I also don't feel that it's helpful to give people who choose to use childcare reasons to worry or feel guilty any more than it's OK to do that to parents of children with eating issues.

goldmandra saying that parents 'choose' to use childcare is not always the case. I, and many others like me, have no choice, they either send their baby to nursery/childminder or they cannot pay their bills.

Weareboats I think your post is at the crux of the present debate in this country.

It is in fact not that useful to be looking at percentage point differences in attainment (whose criteria?) for the average child. Your family requires good quality childcare, now.

My experience of my friends children is that by the time that they are teenagers it will be impossible to see who had what childcare; fussy eating habits aside perhaps - joking!

Goldmandra where has anyone on this thread said you should put your children into childcare.

People have shared their own experiences of childcare. Some good, some not good. No one has told you to send your children to nursery.

retropear in what world is 13 years the blink of an eye? Are you talking in dog years?

13 years? I'll just give up my nursing career altogether then shall I? It's not a job you can just pop back into.

I'm talking re working and being broke.

The trouble with research into childcare and whether DC "do better" in childcare or at home is that "do better" is, at hypothetical best, a measure of a set of outcomes that, as a parent, you may or may not value.

On the whole, I like the DC I know who didn't go to childcare a lot more than I do the DC who did go to childcare. Contrary to what many people claim, there is a huge difference between the two. I am sure that many people prefer the personality types that are nurtured in childcare. So be it!

... And of course, that only matters if the parents of those children value your opinion.

I'm not aware of any evidence that childcare is beneficial for children from average households when the child is under the age of 2.

I'm aware of some evidence that pre-school childcare is beneficial to children from deprived and chaotic households.

I makes me a bit peeved that the 'needs must' argument is constantly wheeled out in support of increased free/subsidised childcare. If a family can't afford to support itself on a single average wage because of astronomical housing and commuting costs then the government should address those issues, not pump money into childcare so to make a bad situation sustainable.

Beneficial to the child compared to what though? That's what it comes down to.

Sitting in traffic is beneficial to nobody but if it gets you to work it's worthwhile.

goldmandra - I wouldnt care if every journal article said children turned in to serial killers if they went to nursery. I have been with mine every day through nursery and I cant fault the care they have had.

I do think it really benefits them and no amount of research would put me off as I am lucky in the fact my dcs are always with me in the same room so I know every experience they have had in childcare. I think if you want to stay at home fair enough, but to me if you didnt want to and only did cause you worried about the impact of childcare thats crazy.

Gosh Bonsoir I wish I had a time machine now so I could undo those years of child care so that you would like my child more

I can't say I've noticed any difference in the personalities of children who went to childcare or not.

I don't know why I read these threads as they always upset me, but I don't think I've ever read anything as upsetting as the comment by Bonsoir. You don't like the personality of all the children you know who've been in childcare! Really? Please inform me as to exactly what it is you don't like. I'd love to know.

I hope you're not really upset jammydodger.
That posters usual style is to throw an inflammatory remark in and disappear for a while. Perhaps she's bored?

But seriously, do you actually care whether she likes your child's personality or not?!

I went to nursery from the age of 6 months old until starting school. I can't remember a thing about it. Why would I? I was tiny. It makes no difference to the a child of that age where they are, they simply won't remember.

After that, my parents still worked and I was collected by a childminder after school or went to after school club. I started to get pissed off with that about 8or 9 years old as I would have loved to have gone straight home but equally it's done no lasting damage and I understood my parents needed to work.

It may not be beneficial for a child to go to nursery until they're 2. But some of us have to work and can't just take a long time off or afford to stay at home.

I work for the NHS, if I don't return I have to pay back my maternity money. Oh, and I enjoy my job.

Bonaoir's study sounds really extensive, rather than 'just children I know'.

I suppose I shouldn't care as she doesn't obviously doesn't know my child. I'm just irritated by the unsubstantiated and inflammatory comments that are often trotted out on threads like these

I disagree that it makes no difference where a child is. I think the quality of care and provision in the formative years is very important, and just because a child doesn't have a conscious memory of it doesn't mean it is irrelevant.

Having said that, I'm a big fan of good quality childcare, and I think my own children benefited from it, just as they benefited from their experiences at home. Like I've said all along, it's not a black and white, all or nothing thing. There are many children who can thrive and be happy spending some time in childcare or being at home all the time. My teenage children are fine and I'm sure would have been fine if I'd been a SAHM.

So you don't like your step children bonoir? Really?