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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

to re-pose the radio 4 question - Is childcare good for CHILDREN?

859 replies

IceBeing · 04/03/2014 08:40

Our dearest Justine and some bloke from the family childcare trust were on radio 4 this morning talking about childcare costs.

They focussed on Mums who would like to work more but cannot afford to due to childcare costs, and a proposal to make more free time available for 2-3 yos.

They both made a compelling case that this situation was bad for the Mums (because they want to work and can't).

They made a reasonable (but by no means obviously correct) argument that it was better for the economy for these Mums to work.

But they were then asked something along the lines of:

" Is increased access to childcare good for children? I mean if it isn't there isn't really any point? "

And they didn't answer AT ALL. They went back to the previous economic answer. Well actually Justine didn't get a chance to respond - so no accusation in her specific direction!

But what is the answer?

Is taking a child out of the home and putting them in nursery for an additional period between 2 and 3 yo (which was the proposal being discussed) actually good for the child?

Do kids in nursery earlier do better/worse at school? Are they happier/less happy? Is this a simple case of happier mummy, happier toddler?

OP posts:
BeeInYourBonnet · 04/03/2014 20:23

OP - your DCs nursery doesn't sound great.

My DCs went to a great nursery (workplace nursery, v low turnover of staff, good terms for staff incl final salary pension etc, very few v young staff). They had great continuity of key workers, I was on site if needed urgently, and they always seemed to have a good time - made lots of friends etc.

I think it was great for their social skills, general development, and confidence. And I can't think of any detrimental effect it has had on them - albeit they were only in nursery PT.

They still go back occasionally for holiday club, and love it.

TeacupDrama · 04/03/2014 20:23

if 15% of mums wanted to work more that also means that 85% of mums want to work the same hours or less

also if 37% of SAHM's want to work that means that 63% of SAHM's want to stay as SAHM's

and of those that do want to work it seems full time is not very popular at all

IamRechargingthankYou · 04/03/2014 20:24

I heard the program - and to be honest I'm not sure, I'm really not. I completely understand the 'economic viability' questions involved but the actual question of whether it's beneficial/neutral/harmful to the children to be in childcare, I really don't know. I actually look back in maternal horror that I left my 5 week old (3 and half week premature) baby with a childminder p/t to continue with my 'career'. At the time I thought I was doing completely the right thing - and later progressing to 5 days full time childminder by 7 months before reducing to p/t by the time ds was 2.

Looking back, thankfully, the childminders were brilliant - but a nursery? full-time? for babies? - a step too far, if I could go back I wouldn't have done what I did with my baby.

So whilst I'm not sure I will say yes, there is too much potential for harm to the 'family bonding' and to 'quality time' for f/t childcare to be 'emotionally' beneficial. It turns families into economically productive units, not emotionally productive ones.

georgesdino · 04/03/2014 20:25

I wish it was like Sweden here. Thats my big ambition for the uk.

womblesofwestminster · 04/03/2014 20:35

I mean he is not able to give her the devoted 1:1 time and loving learning environment that he would like to because he has been asked to 'be the fat controller' at least 100 times already and has lost his mind.

Nurseries don't give 'devoted 1:1 time' either. And really? Your husband can't deal with one kid longer than a few days?

janey68 · 04/03/2014 20:39

Economically productive doesn't have to mean emotionally UNproductive. And vice versa. I wish more people could genuinely see that this isn't an 'either / or ' issue. There are many families with working parents where the enotional needs of the children are met beautifully. And many families where one or both parents are not working where the emotional needs of the children are neglected. And of course every shade of grey in between.

TeamWill · 04/03/2014 21:07

Completely agree with Janey
Both of us sharing the parenting and WOH has been the making of our marriage and family life.
Smile

Beavie · 04/03/2014 21:08

I have just been learning about this at college.

Apparently, the answer depends on the quality of the childcare. If it is a good setting, then the child benefits, if not, then it can have a detrimental effect on the child's development. This is all based on the child's attainment once they get to school.

BeeInYourBonnet · 04/03/2014 21:29

In reality very few under 1s are in nursery these days, due to improved ML pay.

When my DD started nursery (at 7mo, PT) the 'baby room' was full of 6-12mo, some even younger.
When DS started 3y later ( at 12mo) he was one of the youngest. Only about 1 or 2 children under a year old.

I must admit I wasn't 100% happy leaving my DD in nursery (4hr per day) at 7/8mo, whereas when DS started he was on the move and it all seemed fine.

Original poster
IceBeing · 04/03/2014 21:50

justine thanks for commenting! Of course I hope we all understand that what constitutes 'best' for a specific child cannot be evaluated in isolation of the family situation! But the government should be thinking about what is best for children on average before either encouraging or dissuading people from childcare. So I think you are still (a little bit) dodging the question. Shock

OP posts:
Original poster
IceBeing · 04/03/2014 21:52

georges amen to wishing it was like Sweden.....DH is ALWAYS going on about moving to Sweden!

OP posts:
Original poster
IceBeing · 04/03/2014 21:53

Thanks for comments about studies! It is interesting but not really surprising that there is an age relationship to outcomes.....

OP posts:
Original poster
IceBeing · 04/03/2014 21:58

Even less surprising that the quality of the provision matters...

Actually that is a real thing isn't it? I mean the obvs way to reduce costs is to up ratios....what will happen to the likelihood of beneficial childcare if the ratios go up??

I really am less and less convinced the government should artificially lower childcare costs especially by increasing ratios!

OP posts:
IamRechargingthankYou · 04/03/2014 22:06

I also agree with janey it isn't just an either/or - every situation is different but I think that emotional-viability has to be given as much consideration as economic (and other) viabilities. The 'norm'/average expectation of the balance of these viabilities should not depend upon 2 x parents working f/t and this should be considered as an 'extreme' example.

It all smacks a bit of the Industrialization of the Family, with a focus on 'drawing-in' the white collars too.

notadoctor · 04/03/2014 22:17

I absolutely don't think the government should increase ratios and I also don't agree with much is what's being proposed about increasing qualifications for child care practitioners - I don't think a C in GCSE maths necessarily makes for a better carer.

I do however believe the government should be investing massively in early years education and making more childcare which is free at the point of access available to families who need it. I am happy for this to be a priority in terms of where my taxes are spent.

woollybobs · 04/03/2014 22:24

I have worked as a nn for nearly 20 years and I would say most children thrive and enjoy nursery and benefit from it. There is always the odd child who takes a long time to settle and even when they do they don't join in very well but I think that is personality rather than nursery it's self.

Both my children have attends nursery one from 5 months and the other from 1year they are both happy clever confident children and I feel they have benefited from nursery in many ways.

When my eldest child started school with 5 other children who he had attends nursery with the teacher made a comment to me one day that she could really tell the ones who had been in nursery in the group they were all very confident, good listeners could sit well at story time. Had great self help skills. Compared to in her words the ones who were babied by their mums and could do nothing for themselves!

I think there is no right or wrong, and everyone has to do what is best for their child/ family. And others shouldn't judge as we all have different situations.

LittleBearPad · 04/03/2014 22:42

I work part time. Dd is in nursery three days. It works for us. She gets to rampage round a huge garden playing in the mud, she loves her key worker and chatters on about the other children.

I couldn't stay home full time. I like my job. If I left it for five years my career would be utterly scuppered and I've worked hard for it. I also do not want to put all the financial pressure on my husband. In future years I will make sure my daughter knows she has these choices too and doesn't have to stay at home because someone thinks she'll miss precious moments.

fideline · 04/03/2014 23:00

But wooly very few children start reception having had NO nursery experience.

There is a huge middle ground between eschewing pre-school education entirely and enrolling babies in full-time childcare. I wouldn't allow either extreme for my DC as I believe both to be damaging.

fideline · 04/03/2014 23:04

You cannot use the poor effects of denying a child pre-school education as an argument in favour of childcare for babies.

In fact why do we not hear the term pre-school education anymore? The descriptor 'childcare' has swallowed it up and the meaning is rather different. Talking about education for toddlers would help to switch the emphasis back on to what benefits children.

fideline · 04/03/2014 23:05

What is the stepford like 'precious moments' bollocks people keep spouting?

usuallyright · 04/03/2014 23:06

to be honest I'm not sure it's a good thing to have a class full of complaint 4 year olds who are super confident and able to sit for long periods. Let children be children, not robots!
They start school much later in Europe and find our style of ubër traditional fulltime schooling for 4 year olds, baffling. I don't think it should be held up as some golden standard in education.

usuallyright · 04/03/2014 23:07

compliant, bloody predictive!

wouldbemedic · 04/03/2014 23:14

As someone who has looked after lots of children, I think many parents would be amazed if they knew what really went on when they're working. Also if they knew just how often their children ask for their parents and kill time just waiting for them. Also, parents seem to read a lot into how their children react when they're left at nursery, what's going on at nursery for the short time the parent's in the room, and how the child reacts when they re-appear. Resignation can look like the child is 'fine', a child who is held up to the window to wave 'goodbye' is often put straight down again, and a child who barely looks up when the parent re-appears shouldn't be assumed to be having a whale of a time. I've come across lots of nursery workers and never once spoken to one who would wish to leave their own child where they've worked.

BrianTheMole · 04/03/2014 23:37

Oh crikey wouldbemedic. That seriously makes me feel like I fucked up putting my dd in childcare.

wouldbemedic · 05/03/2014 00:18

Not necessarily, brian. It depends on so many things, not least what life would be like without nursery. At the end of the day, if nursery did terrible things to children's emotional and social development, that would be strikingly apparent. It would be easy to establish. I was sharing for the purposes of the discussion and on an anecdotal level only. Personally, I don't really 'get' choosing to spend much time away from small children if you don't have to but am keenly aware that it doesn't make me a better parent. Just explaining why I would naturally favour the perspective put forward in my last post. Cheer up, I'm sure your DD's thriving since you care so much about her.