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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that English, Welsh and Northern Irish

91 replies

winkywinkola · 02/03/2014 16:34

people are perfectly entitled to have an opinion on and be interested in the Scottish referendum on their independence?

OP posts:
OldLadyKnowsNothing · 02/03/2014 20:00

Ohfourfoxache, England and Scotland are the signatories to the Act and Treaty of Union. Either party could have petitioned for indy, the initiative came from Scotland first. As such, those who live, and are eligible to vote, in Scotland are the ones voting. (There's still time to move to Scotland, btw.) Should we vote no, there's nothing to stop England also having a referendum on the subject.

And yes, it's wrong that Scottish MPs can vote on English-only matters, like education. That's why SNP MPs abstain from such votes.

poppyknot · 02/03/2014 20:22

Yes Statistically. Yoyo type comments Biscuit

somewherewest · 02/03/2014 20:24

Why can't England, for example, decide to go it alone?

I don't think there's any inherent reason why England couldn't leave the United Kingdom if it wanted to. Ultimately once the majority in one of the UK's constituent nations wants out, there's not much point in trying to stop them. Most of Ireland won de facto independence in 1922 because the UK government's only alternative was to wage a long savage war to suppress Irish nationalism. Obviously the Scots aren't going to take up arms (I think Grin), but there's no point in vetoing the wishes of the Scottish majority.

HSMMaCM · 02/03/2014 20:27

My husband's Scottish and my DD is half Scottish, but because they live in England they aren't allowed a vote!

winterhat · 02/03/2014 20:34

I agree with you OP. It affects everyone in the UK if a sizeable chunk of the UK is removed.

JanineStHubbins · 02/03/2014 20:37

Everyone in the UK can have an opinion on Scottish independence, of course. They just don't get a say.

ohfourfoxache · 02/03/2014 20:37

Thanks Oldlady and Somewhere Thanks

I didn't realise that the SNP abstains. Do you know if they are he only ones who abstain, or if other Scottish/Welsh/Irish MPs also abstain?

I really don't want to be inflammatory, I'm genuinely interested Blush

OOAOML · 02/03/2014 20:50

I seem to remember reading a while back that other Scots MPs abstained but I also have vague memories of Labour telling them to vote to get something passed. Can't remember when it was though.

FudgefaceMcZ · 02/03/2014 20:59

Of course you are entitled to an opinion. The only reason just people living in Scotland are getting a vote is because that's what SNP and Westminster decided as an arbitrary cut off. It affects people in the rest of the UK equally, if not more according to the SNP manifesto as apparently everything will stay pretty much the same in Scotland if they win the yes vote, except that obviously it will never rain again and unicorn haggises will wander joyfully over the oil spouting from Salmond's forehead or wherever. Whereas those of us who may want to move to or from Scotland at some time in the future with either Scottish or non-Scottish nationality will clearly be affected more than someone who's sat in Wishaw all their life.

YABU to call people living in the rest of the UK non-Scottish, though, since many Scots live in the rest of the UK, and indeed there are those of us who have lived about equal times in all states of the UK and are thus not really accepted by any one of them (due to horrible exclusive attitudes in all parts of the UK which is one thing that makes me think it may as well just be the one country since at least there will be no addition to the 'oooh you're not from round here' crap- the culture is clearly pretty similar all over in that respect), but might not want to identify as British either due to the colonial implications of that.

redbinneo · 02/03/2014 21:02

I certainly think that people from EWNI should have a say in the results of any negotiations following a "yes" vote.

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 02/03/2014 21:14

Re MPs with non-English constituencies voting on English-only matters, SNP don't as a matter of principle. I have a feeling Labour MPs from Scotland helped push through the University fees issue, though. (Well, the one Tory wouldn't make much odds. Grin )

Which is a bit manky. :(

Don't know about Welsh or N Irish though.

ohfourfoxache · 02/03/2014 21:16

I never, ever thought I'd say this, but I have a new found respect for the SNP

The others, not so much

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 02/03/2014 21:22
Grin
WilsonFrickett · 02/03/2014 21:32

The others abstain when it suits them, I fear. Big votes where it could end on a very thin margin, they vote on party lines. As someone said upthread, Salmond/Cameron - that's not really a choice!

iismum · 02/03/2014 21:52

But Salmond/Cameron isn't the choice - the choice is between self-determination or remaining a small part of a big union. It's not about party politics! Both of them will be gone in a few years - this decision is for the long-term.

For the poster who said there was no argument for independence other than anti-Englishness - this is about the right to democratic self-determination. The politics of Westminster are very different to what the people of Scotland vote for (e.g., 1 Tory MP in the whole of Scotland), and that is simply a poor way to run a country - e.g., 80% of Scottish politicians voted against the bedroom tax, and yet it is still implement. There is a never-ending list of similar examples. One of the really big things in the discussion is social justice, which has always been important in Scottish politics, and which people in Scotland (as well as other parts of the UK) don't feel is being done by Westminster.

Obviously, you could make this argument at any level - maybe the north of England should be independent, maybe my village should be more independent - it would be more democratic. But you have to draw the line at somewhere that makes sense. Scotland has a population of 5 million, which correlates well with some of the most successful countries in the world - Norway, Switzerland, Singapore, for example, and has quite a different culture to the rest of the UK, has been administering itself for centuries in many ways (legal system, education, etc., always separate to the UK) and has been running much of its politics very successful since devolution - Holyrood is overwhelmingly more popular and trusted than Westminster in Scotland. But many of the things Scots care about most - welfare (though luckily our NHS is separate and thus not partly privatised), nuclear weapons, immigration policy, etc., are decided by Westminster. Plus, because Scottish taxes go to Westminster not Holyrood, this makes policy making very hard for the Scottish government. For example, they want to increase state-funded childcare, and believe they could afford to do this because it will free up more parents to go back to work and become tax payers. But the tax they pay goes to Westminster, with only 9.3% coming back to Holyrood, whereas all the costs come from Holyrood, so under devolution this is not feasible. And, of course, a power devolved is a power retained - devolved powers can be removed at any point by Westminster without the agreement of the Scottish government.

It's well established by all sorts of figures (some more or less reliable, but the 9.9% of UK tax put in by Scotland vs 9.3% of UK tax spent in Scotland are HM Treasury figures) that Scotland pays more tax than it gets back and has done for 30 years. The traditional socialist belief, still common in Scotland, is that this is ok - if we have the wealth, it is appropriate that we share it with less well-off parts of the country. But there is such a strong feeling that this is not what happens, that so much tax goes to London, tax breaks for the rich and the military whilst millions of Scots (and other UK residents) are in poverty that this becomes a weak argument. Now a lot of left-wing people believe that because an independent Scotland would prioritise social justice much higher than any conceivable Westminster government (now the Labour Party has moved so far from any form of socialism), this would actually help the cause of social justice in the rest of the UK much more than trying to work together within the UK, which really doesn't seem to be helping.

We want different things, we've proved we can govern ourselves effectively and we have the finances to do it - why not! There are certainly a lot of anti-Westminster arguments, but hear very little anti-English sentiment. Of course there is some (though markedly less than the anti-Scottish sentiment in the UK media and many forums) but it's really not a central part of the argument, and never a part of the official Yes campaign.

StatisticallyChallenged · 02/03/2014 22:00

That's not quite true. As a percentage we put in more than we get back, but as a monetary amount we don't. Even with the share of the oil revenue Scotland is still running an overall deficit.

Given the information coming out, it's somewhat idealistic to assume those figures would remain as they are. The current situation regarding currency in particular (no currency union) would in all likelyhood force many of the large financial services companies to move their head offices and much of their funds south of the border. FS accounts for about 8% of scottish GDP IIRC. That's just for starters. We can't be provided with answers on how pretty much anything would actually work, and the white paper is little more than an idealist wishlist.

SeaSickSal · 02/03/2014 22:47

I think what a lot of Scottish people fail to realize is that although only they can decide whether to stay or go the rest of the countries will have a hell of a lot of say on the terms they leave on.

Considering North Sea oil and gas, although on Scottish territory, took an awful lot of investment of English money then I doubt they will be able to walk away with the totality of the profits.

winterhat · 02/03/2014 22:54

If the Scottish people say "stay" then who knows, perhaps the English, Welsh and Northern Irish will vote to separate themselves from Scotland anyway!

winterhat · 02/03/2014 22:55

(in a separate vote later I mean!)

FreakinScaryCaaw · 02/03/2014 23:00

I'm from NE England and I care. I don't want them to leave us.

BeeInYourBonnet · 02/03/2014 23:10

YANBU.
I think most people in Wales would say 'don't go and leave us with the English Tories!' Wink

BeeInYourBonnet · 02/03/2014 23:15
Daffodil
WilsonFrickett · 02/03/2014 23:23

Something like 25% of jobs in Scotland are govt funded in some way or another - as compared to 20% elsewhere (although not sure if that's England or rest of uk combined). Many of these jobs carry out UK wide functions, ie Student Loans company in Glasgow, Centre 1 in East Kilbride, even the BBC in Glasgow. These jobs have been deliberately 'sent' to Scotland as part of various regionalisation policies over the years.

What would happen to these jobs in an independent Scotland?

ohfourfoxache · 02/03/2014 23:31

Hooo thanks for posting that link. Although the article offers some very well reasoned arguments, there is one thing that sticks out: it suggests that, if you are sick of being lied to, then you should make a stand as the Scots have done. All very admirable, but how can anyone believe that Politicians North of the border are any less self serving or any less likely to lie than every other Politician on the planet?

Very interesting article, though.