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To be pissed off with myself re Bounty - help me take action

237 replies

WhatWillSantaBring · 28/02/2014 10:43

I knew it was coming! I know my rights! I'm a lawyer, FFS, and I still got conned into giving my bastard details to the bounty woman in hopsital following the birth of my DC2.

However, I was sufficiently lucid to clearly think - "it's ok, I have not been asked to consent to marketing". My sketchy knowledge of the DPA is that they are now therefore in breach of it, as my details have been sold to third parties. Anyone want to help me with how I make a complaint to the ICO? Or maybe this is a campaign for Which? (I'm a member)

Or will a complaint do nothing. These bastards must be stopped!

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 01/03/2014 10:09

The reason is not right and the reason I believe its illegal is because when you are in a hospital bed you do not have the ability to walk away. Its not necessarily because your brain has gone because you have had a baby. Its because you are liable to be tired and more emotional than you would normally be and possibly simply be more concerned about more important things at that moment in time.

Trading standards state:

Aggressive commercial practices

7.—(1) A commercial practice is aggressive if, in its factual context, taking account of all of its features and circumstances—

(a)it significantly impairs or is likely significantly to impair the average consumer’s freedom of choice or conduct in relation to the product concerned through the use of harassment, coercion or undue influence; and

(b)it thereby causes or is likely to cause him to take a transactional decision he would not have taken otherwise.

(2) In determining whether a commercial practice uses harassment, coercion or undue influence account shall be taken of—

(a)its timing, location, nature or persistence;

(b)the use of threatening or abusive language or behaviour;

(c)the exploitation by the trader of any specific misfortune or circumstance of such gravity as to impair the consumer’s judgment, of which the trader is aware, to influence the consumer’s decision with regard to the product;

(d)any onerous or disproportionate non-contractual barrier imposed by the trader where a consumer wishes to exercise rights under the contract, including rights to terminate a contract or to switch to another product or another trader; and

(e)any threat to take any action which cannot legally be taken.

(3) In this regulation—

(a)“coercion” includes the use of physical force; and

(b)“undue influence” means exploiting a position of power in relation to the consumer so as to apply pressure, even without using or threatening to use physical force, in a way which significantly limits the consumer’s ability to make an informed decision.

They then go to and clarify a few things.

Significant Impairment or Limitation
8.5 The CPRs refer to practices that ‘significantly impair’ and those that ‘significantly limit’ decisions (the latter is in the definition of undue influence).These are likely to have a very similar meaning and both will depend on the context.
8.6 Significant impairment might occur when, for example, a trader stays in a consumer’s home for so long that they feel compelled to sign a contract for a product.

Freedom of choice or conduct
8.7 The concept of freedom of choice is not limited solely to decisions about whether to purchase a product or not. It covers a wide range of choices that are likely to impact on transactional decisions.

And then

BANNED PRACTICEs (sChEDULE 1)
(25) Conducting personal visits to the consumer’s home ignoring the consumer’s request to leave or not to return except in circumstances and to the extent justified to enforce a contractual obligation.
A door to door salesman visits a consumer to sell her some cleaning products. She tells him she is not interested and asks him to leave. He is determined to try and get her to change her mind and continues his sales pitch on her doorstep.This would breach the CPRs.

Giving false information to, or deceiving, customers
7.3A misleading action occurs when a practice misleads through the information it contains, or its deceptive presentation, and causes or is likely to cause the average consumer to take a different decision.

8.4 Undue influence is defined in regulation 7(3)(b) of the CPRs as:
‘exploiting a position of power in relation to the consumer so as to apply pressure, even without using or threatening to use physical force, in a way which significantly limits the consumer’s ability to make an informed decision’.

To spell out the problem here:
If you are in a hospital bed - whether you have had a baby or a hip replacement operation, you are in a position where the trader has a position of power over you, because you are a captive audience who is unable to walk away and my feel under undue pressure to give your details to them, just to get rid of them, particularly if they revisit on a daily basis or press saying "go on its free". This is exerting pressure in a situation where one party is more disadvantaged than normal. This is something you may never do in ordinary circumstances.

Approaching you for your personal data in a hospital bed for commercial reasons where they receive financial reward for selling your data in return for 'freebies' or marketing is an aggressive sales practice. Stuff from Bounty, is NOT free, if you are giving them your personal data and sign up to their 'club'.

If they are not EXPLICITLY stating what they are using the data for, they are potentially misleading you, as you may assume that are associated with the hospital in someway. It is NOT sufficient to state they are from Bounty and to expect women to know who and what Bounty are. Because of the setting of where this is done, there is an even higher risk that women may not realise what they are actually signing up to.

"Just saying no" under these circumstances may be something that women feel unable to do, despite normally giving sales people short shift. PRECISELY because they are exploiting a situation and using aggressive sales tactics

Bounty are not necessarily bad, but free access to women in this situation, does put women under undue pressure and makes them in some cases feel taken advantage of. You wouldn't let a stair lift sales person or a marketer for products for the elderly on a ward with people who have just had a hip replacement so why is this allowed? The system should be by request only in a ward, and preferably not on the ward at all, but perhaps in a side room or corridor where women can make a free unpressured choice to engage or not.

RedToothBrush · 01/03/2014 10:15

Oh and don't get me started about your Rights with regard to privacy and how this is being flouted by hospitals.

The point is that if even 1% of women find this intrusive or under increased pressure there is a problem.

NewtRipley · 01/03/2014 10:21

How in the wide wide world of sport are they still getting away with this?

Koothrapanties · 01/03/2014 10:21

Bully for you Sarah that you felt fine after birth. I didn't!! I had a cs and couldn't move. I was desperately trying to get my baby to bf and really didn't want to have to have an argument with some bounty twat just to get my privacy back!

Then she fucked off and left the bloody curtain open!! So unbelievably rude!

Oh and saying 'knock knock' doesn't actually count as a request to enter if you don't wait for a response.

There are women who are in a lot worse state than me after birth and it's not right at all that they are disturbed and pressurised at that time.

NewtRipley · 01/03/2014 10:24

Sarah

I've never been burgled, hit, had a terrible haircut, fallen down the stairs, or all manner of other upsetting or annoying things.

I can understand that other people have experienced them and therefore believe they happen and sympathise.

RowanMumsnet · 01/03/2014 11:11

Hi there WhatWillSantaBring

Congratulations on your baby Flowers

As you're finding out, this is a long-running issue on Mumsnet - and we have a Bounty Mutiny campaign about it.

The absolutely key thing is that parents in these situations need to complain, loud and long, to the hospital concerned. All our anecdotal evidence suggests that women find Bounty reps massively intrusive, but almost every single hospital we've spoken to about it says 'well, nobody ever complains'. (And of course it's understandable that parents of newborns have other things to do!)

Bounty's contracts are with individual hospitals, so that's where we need to apply pressure.

Please complain - feel free to copy us in on [email protected]! - and we will watch with interest.

elliejjtiny · 01/03/2014 11:11

I was on the postnatal ward after having DS4, who was in NICU. I hated that the bounty lady was allowed in to do her sales pitch when DH couldn't visit. She came in every day, looked at me and said "your baby's still in special care isn't he?" On the last day I was in she came up to me, put a bounty bag on the end of my bed and said "I just need to take some details". I smiled sweetly and said "no, I don't want a load of junk mail thanks" and she just looked shocked and walked off. The lady in the next bed wouldn't give her details either which I think was down to my influence Grin

RedHelenB · 01/03/2014 11:40

It's not a sales pitch, you say no & they walk off! Still don't get all the angst about it! Agree with Sarah, everyone I know either had the photos or not & no one moaned about it!

RedHelenB · 01/03/2014 11:41

I'm pretty certain that the photos raised money for the premature babies too.

MummytoMog · 01/03/2014 11:50

When the bounty lady came round after DD I cried and said that my baby was still in special care. She fucked off fairly sharpish. Never saw one after DS but I was in and out very quickly.

MummytoMog · 01/03/2014 11:55

Am having DC3 later this year, can I shriek 'Mutiny on the Bounty' when they come by or will the midwives give me the eyes?

RedToothBrush · 01/03/2014 11:58

Helen, how about READING what I've said about how some women do not feel ABLE to say no because of the situation and the tactics that some Bounty ladies are using?

Or are you just blindly posting with your fingers in your ears going 'la la la, well it never bothered ME' without listening to how it effects others?

How would you feel if there were people marketing things in other wards in a hospital?

Do you not actually care or want to listen to how some women have found the experience very intrusive and in some cases distressing?

Or are these feelings somehow pathetic or not valid? Do you want to make these women feel even worse? Good for you giving them a kick in the teeth for reacting in a way that you don't approve of.

And don't you DARE lay the guilt trip of premature babies. Thats beyond low, and very manipulative way to try and get women to "put up and shut up" by suggesting that in someway they have selfish for no liking the experience.

mousmous · 01/03/2014 12:01

when I was last in hospital (with a relative who had to be admitted) we were asked for our details so many times by so many people who didn't properly introduce themselves.
I guess they were all healthcare professionals, but couldn't be sure. similar on the maternity ward. I don't remember how often I had to give details but in the foggy tired and anaemic post birth state it is easy to just give details to the next person who asks...

Nousernameforme · 01/03/2014 13:01

I refused my first bounty pack from the mw booking in appointment and it was written in my notes as bounty pack not given and they foisted one upon me later on in the pregnancy when i was feeling much less fighty. However after the birth i was all geared up for the bounty lady this being dc 4 I had stuck up for myself in labour as much as i could with the doctor and the mw's were being proper lovely all pandering and caring so i felt this was a fight i could win. Then I didn't go up to the ward so no bounty bags or lady for me to deal with i was quite disappointed.
Then get this, I registered his birth and because of where we live and where ds was born you can register in one town but it get's sent to the nearest city to be properly inputted and they post you a birth certificate. In the envelope was an Emma's Diary dodah I felt robbed

MrsY · 01/03/2014 14:11

Now if they came round with some nice soft loo roll and a bar of chocolates, I'd probably be more open to talking to them!

My sister has muma packs as part of her sling business so I got one of them - sooooo much better!

We have already said we will ask the mw to keep the bounty rep away from us. And it's private rooms, not a ward, so I will feel stronger about telling someone to bog off if necessary. I love the bounty photo I have of our daughter, but really, we could have taken it ourselves!

perfectstorm · 01/03/2014 14:31

Why didn't you just say "no, thank you"?

I'd been in labour for 3 days. DS was tongue-tied and couldn't feed. I'd needed a catheter and had stitches and hadn't been able to sleep in the day since the birth, either. She was charming and polite and would. not. take. no. for. an. answer. They're trained salespeople, who will have had a lot of focus on objection-handling (I know - I worked my way through uni doing sales) and I was exhausted, shell-shocked and vulnerable, so really the perfect candidate for that sort of barrage. I eventually gave in to make her go the fuck away, which is so very common I would imagine at least half their sales leads are obtained that way - which is disgustingly unethical.

I should never have been in a position where I had to deal with an extremely persistent, pushy, aggressive sales pitch for my personal data when I was in a hospital, having just given birth, fgs. And your post, to be blunt, blames the victim. We TRIED to say no. We were not in a frame of mind where we felt able to be assertive enough - and that's why they target new mothers in hospital in the first place!

I hate Bounty. I think they are scum. I think any organisation whose business plan so heavily relies upon exploiting people in hospital deserves to go under, quite frankly.

perfectstorm · 01/03/2014 14:34

It's not a sales pitch, you say no & they walk off!

Yes, that's right, we're all just pathological liars inventing our life experiences. I mean, you were there too, so you know, right? Hmm

Corabell · 01/03/2014 14:59

I complained about the bounty woman to the post natal ward manager. She had burst into the cubicle and made a comment about me "not being up yet". I pointed out I'd had an emcs and she told me that " after her section she was up and about within a couple of hours and I should get my leggings on and have a walk". My DH had to bundle her out of the cubicle sharpish

ASmidgeofMidge · 01/03/2014 15:11

As far as I'm concerned Bounty do use aggressive/exploitative sales practices for all the reasons outlined by PPs, and I can't believe they're still being allowed access to hospital wards either. At the time my dd was born (6 years ago) a Bounty rep walked into my room without knocking when I was in established labour. She had the good grace to look embarrassed: I didn't have a clue who she was and thought she must be a member of staff. It didn't occur to me that anyone other than medical staff would have access to patients.
It's a different hospital and much more recently, but I was interested to see that when my DS was born in Jan, the ward had given the Bounty rep a sort of 'station' on the main corridor - women could approach her if they wanted to, rather than the rep wandering into the bays and barging in on targeting speaking to mums. A slight improvement but still think they shouldn't be allowed in hospitals full stop.

RedHelenB · 01/03/2014 15:28

Sounds like a good idea ASmidge.

NewtRipley · 01/03/2014 15:34

hear hear perfectstorm

tracypenisbeaker · 01/03/2014 15:38

When the Bounty person came onto my ward I was gearing myself up to go mental at them if they opened my curtain without permission while i was bfing. To their credit they didnt try, but from what I could hear everyone else signed up. The woman next to me even said 'That's really nice of you, thanks' when she got her bag of shite.

What annoyed me the most was that my MIL was asking me when I was planning on applying for child benefit (she's v nosy and treats me like an idiot) and when I told her I was yet to print a form off she was like 'I think you're supposed to get a Bounty pack, everyone gets a Bounty pack, that's how you get your CB form' and I was like 'Just because they offer you one it doesn't mean you have to sign up. Their goal is to sell your details, and nothing else. Plus it is not the only way to get a CB form.' Cue her spouting nonsense about how I'd 'missed my chance' and 'they probably won't backdate it' when I had already been told by the woman registering my sons' birth that you could do so. Bounty need to be clear about their intentions because people like my MIL just get suckered in without questioning anything. I mean, why challenge the perfect stranger who has just approached you asking for your personal details (including your child's name ffs) in return for samples...

honeybeeridiculous · 01/03/2014 15:52

I work in maternity hospital, we asked a new mum to bring along her baby to a certain room at a specified time so that the paediatrician could assess her baby before she could take him home (baby had been poorly the previous day)
She refused to bring the baby for a check up in case she missed the bounty lady,and said she wasn't happy that she had been here 2 days and not seen her Grin

RafflesWay · 01/03/2014 16:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedToothBrush · 01/03/2014 16:08

Erm, only over thirty years Raffles! Wink

The first questioning of the practise was actually raised in 1981 I think!!!

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