To be pissed off with myself re Bounty - help me take action

[WhatWillSantaBring]

I knew it was coming! I know my rights! I'm a lawyer, FFS, and I still got conned into giving my bastard details to the bounty woman in hopsital following the birth of my DC2.

However, I was sufficiently lucid to clearly think - "it's ok, I have not been asked to consent to marketing". My sketchy knowledge of the DPA is that they are now therefore in breach of it, as my details have been sold to third parties. Anyone want to help me with how I make a complaint to the ICO? Or maybe this is a campaign for Which? (I'm a member)

Or will a complaint do nothing. These bastards must be stopped!

[RowanMumsnet]

Just to let you all know: Justine and KatieMN had a rather productive meeting with health minister Dan Poulter today - you can see the details here.

Hope you're all getting on well with your complaints - we need your examples of recent bad practice, so Santa and others, if you'd like to submit your examples of your experiences for us to take up with the trusts concerned, do please email us at [email protected].

Thanks and hope the new babies are all thriving

[RowanMumsnet]

@RedToothBrush

Saucy, I know you are very busy, but PLEASE try and write a complaint to the hospital.

Seconded! And do feel free to copy us in - [email protected] - if you'd like to.

Congratulations on the new baby

[RedToothBrush]

I think the fact you keep saying that they are poorer or less educated women who work for Bounty is incredibly offensive but do carry on.

[whataboutbob]

Ok. I have also been at the receiving end of bounty's tactics first time round got sucked in, second time round saw them for what they are and decided not to engage with them and then move on. If others have the energy to take Bounty on, then that's good. I absolutely do not support the sales tactics and business model which are deceitful and exploitative, I agree.what I m uncomfortable is the condescending and contemptuous comments about the women who do the work. I do not feel that poorer women have less integrity, just fewer choices. I. M sure there are plenty of wealthy, well educated women doing ethically dubious yet well paid jobs. Jobs in which the moral dubiousness can be better concealed. i think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. But as a last word, I work in the NHS and I know it runs in great part thanks on the good will and humanity of underpaid working class women.

[perfectstorm]

I wasn't aware that disagreeing with a poster on AIBU and asking that they provide some sort of backing for their claims makes me "looking for a bunfight". You posted something fairly controversial, and as others have pointed out, you did so in support of sales techniques that are banned in scenarios involving far less vulnerable targets. You surely can't expect that to go unaddresses? You also ignored my point about the impact on benefits of the really low paid, and the fact that you're seemingly saying poorer women have less integrity than the better off. I don't think that is a fair assumption to make at all. I also asked if you had any data to back the original assertion up, and you didn't actually answer.

As to the tone being hateful - the people expressing anger have been harassed, lied to, insulted and their privacy invaded in the hours immediately after childbirth, all with the aim and intention of exploiting them. I'm afraid I think that behaviour is in itself rather hateful.

[RedToothBrush]

Saucy, I know you are very busy, but PLEASE try and write a complaint to the hospital.

[RedToothBrush]

whataboutbob, the thing is that somehow you are excusing their behaviour because they are women. And there is babies involved and its a 'nice sweet fluffy job' rather than double glazing sales or home improvement or other sales professions which have a reputation for being dubious.

Yet they are using the same high pressure sales tactics that are BANNED in these other scenarios because they are considered unfair and aggressive.

I don't really get how that works.

[winterhat]

Very good idea daphnehoneybutt

[SaucyJack]

or even thanks.

[SaucyJack]

Had a run-in with a Bounty "lady" meself this morning*. She walked in to my cubicle uninvited and attempted to collect mine and my new daughter's details.

When asked as to what it was for, she answered in a deliberately vague and misleading fashion as to what it was for- and when I directly challenged her she flat out denied it was for marketing purposes and refused to answer my Q that she wasn't a member of the medical team.

Poor DP was mortified with me at first, but that's because he's a naice MC boy who automatically complies with anyone flashing a laminated badge at him.

*that's for your v. timely thread OP btw.

[threeblueducks]

I was the only mum on the ward when ds was born- silly bint came back 3 times. 3rd time I listened to the pitch, nodded, smiled, and still said no. She then tried again the next morning where I loudly commented to all of the brand new overnight arrivals on the ward that the speech I'd had yesterday was more painful than my recent forceps delivery and would she please leave me in peace.
She huffed and puffed and finally fucked off. Did wonders for new mum stress.
I kinda hope she's there for baby 2

[DinoSnores]

"I did though find the tone of 80% of the posts earlier rather hateful towards these women."

I think there is justifiably a lot of anger about women who are allowed access to vulnerable women at an incredibly emotional, joyous, terrifying moment of life who often lie or mislead to harvest personal details that will then (without you giving appropriate consent) be sold on to third parties. Their work is morally reprehensible!

[daphnehoneybutt]

Can't believe this is allowed.

We could create a collective person whose details we give to the bounty woman.

Name "Ms Vaginka Semen"

Address ""

And so on and so forth?

[whataboutbob]

Look perfect storm I'm not interested in a bunfight. I think it s reasonable to assert that the bounty reps are on the whole not recruited amongst the middle classes, although I ll admit I m in London,. Maybe it would be different in areas of high unemployment.
I did though find the tone of 80% of the posts earlier rather hateful towards these women.

[perfectstorm]

Whataboutbob can you back up the assertion that commission-only, aggressive saleswomen are in general poverty stricken, working-class women? It wasn't my own personal experience with Bounty, and it certainly hasn't been my experience more generally. It also seems unlikely that it will be work undertaken by those on very low incomes because it's solely commission-based, and the erratic nature of those earnings would play merry hell with any tax credits, housing benefits or council tax benefits the employee would be entitled to. So it will primarily attract people who want an additional source of income, but are not benefits-dependent - ie not the poorest.

Can you also explain why you think working class people are likely to be less empathetic, and to have less integrity, than those with more money? Seems a rather unpleasantly snobbish assertion, really.

As for televisions in wards - no, they shouldn't be on that loudly and a midwife should have said something; actually it should IMO be compulsory for headphones to be worn. But there's a clear and apparent benefit to mothers of access to television. Having their personal identity data bullied out of them at an extremely vulnerable time so they can be buried under a deluge of spam ever after, not so much. The ethical comparison is simply not there.

[winterhat]

Well done DinoSnores

[RedToothBrush]

Do we feel the same about door to door salesmen who go and visit vulnerable old people?

They are just doing their job...

I'm pretty sure Bounty Ladies know when they are deliberately misleading and when a women says no or when she simply just doesn't know what she's filling in because English isn't her first language or how insensitive she is when she calls a baby ugly etc etc.

It doesn't matter which class you come from or how much you need the money. You still can choose whether to behave in an ethical manner and you damn well know when you break the rules. If you break the rules, then you should be prepared for the consequences.

[SometimesLonely]

DinaShores Thank you for that link. I looked at it and my MP is not in the list. Surprise, surprise. Anyway, I don't vote for him because I don't like him - not because he's Conservative but because just I don't like him. Our previous MP was in the Labour party but I voted for him not his party because he was a b**y good MP, dealing with his constituents as if they were people not just voters.

[ExBrightonBell]

er, whataboutbob, so it's ok for poor working class women (people?) to be bad at their job because they are poor and working class with few options? I don't think so! Don't you think that everyone should be respectful and polite when carrying out their job, irrespective of their background?

The Bounty people don't have to behave in the way that many of them do. I am quite happy to lambast the horrible Bounty woman that disturbed me without permission when I was vulnerable and traumatised after my horrific birth, with my ds very poorly in SCBU. She came into my private side room (moved there after being uncontrollably distressed on the main postnatal ward), without asking permission, and actually said "where is your baby?!". What a stupid woman she was. The NHS should have no truck with this organisation who can't control their staff from behaving so unprofessionally. Unfortunately money overrides concern for women's welfare in many NHS trusts.

[whataboutbob]

I agree these practices are awful. We should challenge the NHS 's symbiosis with Bounty. Clearly there is something in it for them and that's why they let the reps have the run of the place.
My gripe when i was last on a maternity ward was that there were TVs by all beds. The partner of the woman opposite me watched the football, at top volume. Just after you've given birth, are trying to get some rest, establish breast feeding etc. None of the nurses (who mostly stayed well away form the ward, preferring to congregate around their desk area) saw fit to ask him to turn it down. Clearly the TVs are there because there's money in it for the hospital. It's hard to imagine that being allowed in the early days of the NHS- I like to imagine a stern matron coming along and telling that guy in no uncertain terms to switch the TV off. Again no consideration for the new mothers' needs.

[DinoSnores]

Anyway, this is the letter I sent to my MP a few days ago (identifying details removed). I'll let you know if/when I get a reply:

Re: EDM 319 - Marketing on maternity wards [http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2013-14/319 - you can see if your MP has signed as the signatures are below]

I recently discovered I was pregnant again and attended my GP to begin
the referral process to the midwife and my hospital consultant. As part
of this, I received a pile of marketing leaflets in a Bounty pack.

It reminded me this time last year when I was in hospital following the
birth of my second daughter. While sitting on a hospital bed with a
urinary catheter in place, only a sheet covering my bottom half, and
trying to breastfeed my 16 hour old newborn baby, a stranger popped her
head round the curtains.

This stranger wasn't the breastfeeding counsellor coming to help
establish breastfeeding. It wasn't one of the overworked midwives
coming to remove my catheter or check on us after a difficult labour
the night before. It wasn't the paediatrician coming to check my new
daughter following the stillbirth of her elder sister 14 months before.
It wasn't my young son coming to meet his new little sister as visitors
weren't allowed on the ward at that time of the day.

It was a sale representative from Bounty coming to harvest my personal
details to sell to third parties under the pretence of the free gift of
a bag of spam!

I didn't give her my details but there are many vulnerable women who
feel pressured to at a very precious and tender time in their lives.

I was therefore pleased to see that last year you signed EDM 319
condemning these practices.

I'd like to know now what action you have taken since, particularly in
relation to [our local hospital], and what response you have
had from the [hospital] regarding removing 'the Bounty lady' from the wards.

[DinoSnores]

I'm totally with whataboutbob on this. I'm also really uncomfortable lambasting muggers. They are mostly working class who are probably doing the work for much needed cash. They are unlikely to have the option of much more satisfying work. Or indeed better paid work (unlike some of the posters on here). Perhaps we should remember this before we get on our high horses.

[FryOneFatManic]

whataboutbob I suggest you read this and other threads and save your sympathy for the new mothers. There are many, many stories of these bounty women displaying very poor, if not offensive, behaviour.

[whataboutbob]

I also found bounty pretty rirritating- them getting something out of you,in the guise of it being a treat for you. However I feel a little uncomfortable with some of these posts,lambasting the Bounty women. They are mostly working class women who are probably doing the work for much needed cash. They are unlikely to have the option of much more satisfying work. Or indeed better paid work ( unlike many of the posters on here). Maybe we should remember this before we get on our high horses. And apologies if others have already made this point, I don't have time to read the whole thread.