To be annoyed at some views on The Holocaust

[M0naLisa]

I've just seen that one of the last surviving Holocaust survivors has died aged 110! It came up on ITV news page on Facebook. Some of the comments are vile and very nasty!!

Why don't people believe what happened in WWII actually did happen?! Makes me so angry

I was educated on this at school in History, and when my children do WWII at school we will speak to them about what happened etc. do these people who don't believe pass their views on to their children?!

Seriously obvious and gravely unpleasant anti-Semitic stereotype, that Facebook cartoon. I gasped when I saw it. I was all prepared for it to be a typical contemporary over-reaction but no, it really was bad.

tryingreallytrying

Mimishimi - go and read/look at some of the books/films etc recommended on this site before claiming that the Holocaust was in some way connected to just generally falling demographics. angry Mass murder is very different to people choosing not to have kids and to confuse the two appears to be more than just stupidity in my opinion.

I read it differently to you. To me, she isn't denying the Holocaust or confusing it with a low birth rate. She's saying that she believes that she thinks a demographic decline after the Holocaust is connected to it.

mirtzapine the question is though, what do we learn from history? It's not enough to remember what happened, we need to try to understand why.

If all we learn from history is that the Holocaust happened because Germany was anti-Semitic (as per Goldhagen) that's not very illuminating, or indeed very explanatory. It's a very 1990s argument, of a piece with books like Balkan Ghosts that explained ethnic cleansing as the result of 'primordial ethnic hatreds'. A lot of excellent research has been done since then, on genocide and ethnic conflict, that takes account of many more factors and influences (including some of the great examples that Spork mentions).

This research actually helps explain deniers as well, because you can see some of the same ideological drivers at work. The sick thing is that most of them are too stupid to realise that their arguments are just repeating anti-Semitic diatribes from the last 2000 years.

BoffinMum

If I recall correctly (did a history degree back in the day) if you told someone in 1900 that a European country would seek to annihilate the continent's Jews, they would not have guessed Germany. Germany was no more anti-Semitic than much of Europe at the time - the Russian Empire (which would have included part of Poland and the Baltic states) was the hotbed of European anti-Semitism, and France and Britain weren't terribly enlightened on the subject either. Many German Jews held high positions in academia, industry e.t.c and there was a lot of intermarriage. German anti-Semitism only really flowered after Germany was defeated in WWI and hyperinflation ruined many Germans in the 1920s. And the Germans found plenty of willing collaborators all over Europe in slaughtering the Jews. There's also the shameful record of many countries in failing to take in Jewish refugees, as shown in this story:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis

None of which lets Germany off the hook - I just think its too easy to see Nazi Germany as uniquely evil, when we have no idea how other peoples would have behaved in similar circumstances.

Which paper is this cartoon in?

Sunday Times' Culture section had a review of a book, Countrymen: The Untold Story of How Denmark's Jews Escaped the Nazis by Bo Liegaard. A different angle, apparently Denmark was less tightly controlled than other occupied nations, and locals cooperated to ensure thousands of local Jews escaped in boats to neutral Sweden.

I'd personally advise against reading Martin Gilbert's book on The Holocaust because it is so depressing, one chapter ends with stuff like 'That afternoon, 15,000 Jews were gassed...' it is just soul destroying. An invaluable and necessary record, but you may as well read about Brady and Hindley's murders imo. I'd rather read about why it happened - the social circumstances, culture and politics - than individual, distressing cases of each atrocity.

It is ironic that the deniers so hate the Jews, they provide the reason why it happened! I mean, I'd love to be convinced the 'holocaust' never happened, I'd be delighted! It would mean six million Jews hadn't died! The ones who insist it is a fantasy however are the ones who generally hate the Jews the most.

I also think that holocaust denial should be illegal in this country.

Genuine question - wouldn't overt, public denial be classed as hate speech?

I saw it in the daily mail, sorry, but if you google it, the image is all over the internet.

DM link here if you want it

And still the apologists keep commenting. I'm actually quite disturbed by the comments. And I know DM commenters are largely tossers (although I did comment!) but hoe can so many people be so stupid. It depresses me how we have learnt absolutely nothing over the years.

I don't think holocaust denial and/or anti-Semitism is a matter of education as such because some well-educated people I know (Russell Group university-educated) also deny the holocaust happened; they're just more wordy in their denial.

It took me aback the other day to hear somebody (an elderly person of about 80 who I thought to be charming and decent) use the term, 'bloody Jew' in a contemptuous manner.

I believe that what happened in Germany could've happened here. The German people are not a separate class of human being.

It's incremental, isn't it? Start small by a few unpleasant words, perhaps whispers of 'he's taking what you should have' and it all escalates.
Of course those who use the words don't really want anybody to suffer horribly but, by going along with the hate, they give tacit permission for those in control to make the target group (s) suffer.

I looked after an amazing lady who was involved with the liberation of belsan,she went over with the red cross I believe.What she saw there stayed with her until the day she died and she couldn't handle the memories.It made her ill the frailer she got.
Sorry nothing more to add,but as someone has said,let the idiots speak.They know nothing.

I worry that recently, a lot of people are declaring themselves to be Holocaust deniers because the trend of setting oneself up as a maverick thinker refusing to accept any commonly accepted truths or opinions is gaining ground. It's not critical thinking so much as knee-jerk (and often very ill-informed) rejection of any prevailing view.

The very fact that there is such a strong consensus that the Holocaust is historical fact will attract people like this to decry it as a conspiracy. You can see a modern equivalent in the 9/11 truther movement. There is no historical, social or cultural perspective and little proper science, but a lot of dense, circular argument about minute factual details. When you ask people the big questions about 'Why?' you get a lot of immature theorising.

It explains why Dan Brown is so wildly popular, and David Icke and plenty more. It seems to be a cultural trend at the moment, fuelled by the spread of the Internet. The weird thing is, I reckon a lot of the people who are attracted to these Holocaust denial theories for these reasons might actually be non-plussed to be accused of anti-Semitism.

Hitler was banking on people forgetting about atrocities.

He was inspired by the Armenian genocide and reassured his staff that no-one would seriously sanction Germany in the future for genocide.

In one of his speeches to army commanders, he said "Who, after all, speaks today of the annhilation of the Armenians?"

Holocaust denial (or like mimishi - holocaust minimisation) is simply a continution of what Hitler envisaged, albeit later than with the Armenians.

I agree with others regarding Germany facing up to its past. Very few countries have managed to do what Germany did and reinvent themselves in such a way. Look at Austria who seem to have managed to present themselves as the victims when they were very willing participants! Japan has also not really accepted responsibility for the atrocities inflicted upon other peoples in WW2. Someone mentioned Belgium and the Congo as an example which I think is totally spot on.

My father in law was a holocaust survivor (as a child) but apart from his immediate family (parents and siblings) who managed to escape Europe, all the rest of his family perished. DH was brought up with an almost visceral hatred of Germans and all things German. Even now, he has trouble being friends with Germans, even though we've met some lovely Germans our age who obviously had no connection to the holocaust. Of course, it's not a rational response but it's very deep-seated given what happened and I think it's only the next generation who will be able to get past it.

Really hope I don't upset anyone but I could do with some views on what to do with something I found in a box going through one of my parent's things. It is a Nazi Propaganda book which I think must have been found when my Grandparent's house was cleared then shoved in a box .

In the past I have questioned at length the role my family in the war and it seems my immediate family were opposed to the regime and split from a more distant branch of the family. It was upsetting finding it and obviously raises some unpleasant questions I need answering but that is another issue I need to deal with.

What do I do with the book? My first reaction was to burn it but then I thought about it. I feel very very strongly that we must never ever forget what happened and this book is a piece of that time. I wondered whether it should go to a museum or something as part of something that teaches people understand and remember or do I destroy it ?

Could do with some more views on this, I am so sorry for asking.

Foundinabox I would not destroy it, personally. I assume from what you write your parents are no longer alive?

Initially, maybe contact IWM to see what they know of this book and if they have an interest in it. Perhaps they could help you with the beginning of your journey, your quest for answers. Alternatively, you could contact Yad Vashem in Jerusalem as they also have extensive archives.

I agree, a museum might be the answer, if not your local museum why not ask the Imperial War Museum in London? They'd be unlikely to give you a valuations for it but might be interested in taking it. Don't think they'll promise to display it but it could form part of their collection.

email: [email protected]
telephone: +44 (0)20 7416 5342
or write to:

Collections Enquiries
Imperial War Museum
Lambeth Road
London SE1 6HZ
United Kingdom

In your letter or email, provide
(i) a brief description of the item
(ii) any details about who may have used the book
(iii) your telephone number or email address and
(iv) state whether or not you are the owner.

Don't be sorry for asking!

Are you in Germany? If so I would do some careful googling because Nazi paraphernalia is illegal and you don't want to accidentally get in trouble (at least this is my understanding).

Otherwise I would contact the Holocaust museum or memorial in the country you're in and see if they're interested. If not, they may refer you to one of the larger museums (Yad Vashem or the Holocaust museum in DC) which maintain large archives.

In Defence of History by Richard J Evans is not about the Lipstadt/Irving libel case, it's a historiographical text. Telling Lies About Hitler is the one you want.

Claude Lanzmann's incomparable Shoah is available to watch on youtube:

Thank you both. My parent is alive but not well and I'm charged with sorting things out. I did think of donating it to the IMW so will see if they will take it as a first step. I have another relative I can trust for answers as my parent is proving not to have been reliable about things said for many many years it is transpiring recently .

Am in the UK, thank you.

Sorry wrong thread, will have it deleted

YY to contacting IWM about the book.

Kisses thank you for explaining better than I could.

Shoah is the preferred term.

An elderly Jewish friend of mine had lost all of her family bar one brother in the camps. She herself had escaped from Austria as a teenager and come to Britain - but went back to the continent just after the war to work for the US army as a translator (she spoke umpteen languages.)

She told me once that during the course of her work, she had heard lots of locals plead, with looks of shining innocence on their faces and tears in their eyes, that they hadn't known what was going on in the camps. She said that she didn't realize the truth of things until she actually went to Ravensbruck - which was the area the people they were interrogating were from - and saw the camp. The local people were living on the high ground and the camp was down below. You could see everything from outside your back door.

Whether shoah is the preferred term depends on who you speak to. I don't think it is. Even Yad Vashem uses the terms interchangeably.

If anything, the reason Holocaust might be objected to is because it can be used to include other victims of Nazi crimes, such as the Roma, rather than specifically referring to the destruction of European Jewry.

In any case, shoah can be used to refer to any terrible mass murder or genocide in Hebrew, just like holocaust in English.