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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be annoyed at some views on The Holocaust

146 replies

M0naLisa · 23/02/2014 22:44

I've just seen that one of the last surviving Holocaust survivors has died aged 110! It came up on ITV news page on Facebook. Some of the comments are vile and very nasty!!

Why don't people believe what happened in WWII actually did happen?! Makes me so angry Confused

I was educated on this at school in History, and when my children do WWII at school we will speak to them about what happened etc. do these people who don't believe pass their views on to their children?! Confused

OP posts:
DonkeysDontRideBicycles · 25/02/2014 10:16

A saying attributed to Stalin was, "A single man killed is a misfortune, a million is a statistic".

The deniers ignore evidence and challenge the sheer numbers annihilated. It is as one MNer said upthread, so horrific it doesn't seem real. However the Holocaust is one of the best documented historical events I can think of.

SooticaTheWitchesCat · 25/02/2014 10:25

I work in a Jewish care home and there are a number of holocaust survivors here, they sometimes tell their stories and it is heart-breaking to hear what they went through.

Some of the deniers should come here and listen to what the people have to say!

Crowler · 25/02/2014 10:33

I think it's possible that people who point out that the Holocaust was not the only atrocity in history are being confused for deniers, as evidenced upstream a bit.

You have to be willfully ignorant to believe the Holocaust didn't exist. Unfortunately we've been "trained" to lump people who view, for example, the Native American genocide as on par with/worse than the Holocaust (based on death tolls) as anti-Semites (I'm of course using Semite in the new, re-purposed meaning).

Potol · 25/02/2014 10:42

A lot of people have asked what they could read about this. I'm a historian by profession. I'm not a general fan of his work and his views about postmodernism, but Richard Evans is a Regius Professor of History at Cambridge, and has written a wonderful book about the David Irving/Deborah Lipstadt trial called 'In Defence of History', which is about Holocaust denial (David Irving is probably the most famous Holocaust denier around). Again, I think he misrepresents postmodernism slightly in the book, but it is a sterling work, and a real insight into how the discipline of history is not 'just' a study of the past and has an incredibly important role to play vis-a-vis events like the Holocaust.

muppetthecow · 25/02/2014 10:47

I've never had the opportunity to visit one of the camps, but I did visit Yad Vashem when I was 15, and I have never been able to express the way I felt. I remember there being a room with mirrors for walls and candles burning - the walls acted like infinity mirrors and with the reflections there was a candle for each victim. I knew about the holocaust, I'd done projects at school etc, but it wasn't until I stood there and looked at those flames going on and on, that I realised just how many people it really was. The numbers get so big you can't picture it iyswim. I must have stood there for about 20 minutes with the tears just streaming. I will never, ever forget that day.

I think the organised trips to the camps for teens are a great idea. In a classroom you learn the facts, and you recognize that it was something awful, but I don't think you can fully grasp the sheer scale of it. Hopefully it will help make sure we end up with generations of people who can't even think of denying it.

OxfordBags · 25/02/2014 11:06

Another fact about the camps that virtually no-one knows about, it that the Nazi guards forced the healthiest and most attractive young women prisoners to become their prostitutes; sex slaves, to be precise. I mean keeping them in tiny rooms, waiting to be raped endlessly. This also happened in the countries they occupied, to the local women. In the camps, the women were killed at the slightest hint of illness or resistance.

I only know this because my Great-Aunt was a survivor, and her sister died as a forced prostitute in Auschwitz. I think it's important that these many thousands of women are not forgotten by history, as has been the case so far. We know about the 'comfort women' (what an insulting term) abused by the Japanese in WWII, but not the other nations who did this also.

UptheChimney · 25/02/2014 11:15

There's not only the outright holocaust deniers, there's also the people who go round saying, 'oh it happens all the time'

Yes JohnFarleysRuskin it's often connected with anti-Israel/anti-Semitic commentary. Along the lines of "What makes you Jews so special?"

Marylou2 · 25/02/2014 11:24

Antisemitism from the ill educated doesn't surprise me but still find it shocking.I was just listening to a piece on Radio 4 about this lady. What a wonderful, talented, cultured person she was!

mirtzapine · 25/02/2014 11:37

I was born in 1966, 21 years after the end of the Shoah, by grandparents who were jews affected by the Shoah, my grandmothers family died in the camps, my Grandfather was an RAMC Medic who was part of the medical team sent into Belsen.

I grew up with a deep seated "hatred" of all things German and Nazi. It has affected me deeply in my adult life. An example of which, DW invited a German to stay, I had a near panic attack that a German was going to be under the same roof as me and that was only 5 years ago. I was stunned at myself for the feeling that being near a German who had nothing to do with the Holocaust had in me, because of my early socialisation.

I would suggest that people read Daniel Jonah Goldhagens "Hitlers Willing Executioners" and "Worse than War".

my grandparents take on it was that every German (and their allies) knew full well about the the genocide of European Jewry and were complisant in it. I also need to point out that it wasn't just European Jewry who suffered at the hands of the genocidal policies(gay, Roma, face didn't fit etc). Look at the "Lebensunwertes Leben" (life unworthy of life) for the disabled.

The after affects of the Holocaust are much more far reaching than anyone realises. An Example, The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (Haj Amin al-Husseini) during the 1940-45 aided the nazi's he encouraged the Bosnian Muslims to form an SS Division (Handschar 13th Waffen SS Mountain Division) to operate agains Tito's Yugoslavian partisans. He also encouraged Muslims of Tunisia to be Auxiliaries to the German army. He also was expecting the German Army to "Free" Palestine from British subjugation and have the al Yudah al Arab "removed" from Palestine.

I have heared evidence to suggest that Haj Amin al-Husseini was Yasser Arafat's uncle which is why so many Israeli politicians had difficulties with him as head of the PLO, but I can't find an exact reference to it quickly.

Irrespective of the shoah, genocide still goes on today, since the second world war, we've had the Killing Fields, China in Tibet, Rwanda, Bosnia, to name only a few.

The Holocaust should be the starting point to remind us all that the killing still has not stopped, irrespective of creed, colour, politics ethnicity, religion.

mirtzapine · 25/02/2014 11:39

errata: by grandparents should read my grandparents

DioneTheDiabolist · 25/02/2014 11:39

I, as a fairly typical person cannot understand how it happened. How did normal everyday family people work in these camps killing innocent people?

Then it is worth taking the time to find out. You will find that it is frighteningly easy to make people abuse, murder and be complicit in the mass murder of a group.Sad. I would love to be able to say that we learnt our lesson, but the truth is we have not.Sad

IneedAwittierNickname · 25/02/2014 11:49

oxfordbags I read a book about that aspect of the Holocaust as a teenager. IIRC it was called House of Dolls. I'm not sure however if its a work of fiction based on a true diary, a factual account, or a work of fiction based loosely on real events (in a similar way to Boy in the striped pajamas)

My ex wasn't a holocaust denier, but he did say to me once "i don't get your obsession with it, it was in the past, why keep going on about it" Confused Angry

dreamingbohemian · 25/02/2014 12:44

I don't think it's fair to hold prejudices against Germans today they have nothing to do with the Holocaust. I say this as someone who grew up with grandparents who spit on the floor whenever Germany was mentioned, as they lost every single relative who had not escaped Eastern Europe before the war. I now live in Germany and am married to a half-German man. I think actually people would be surprised by how much Germany has done in trying to atone for its acts far more than other Western countries have done to atone for their own past slaughters.

The Goldhagen books are problematic and have been subject to serious critique by other historians. I wouldn't say don't read them, but if you google the controversy it's a very interesting debate.

AngelaDaviesHair · 25/02/2014 12:46

It reminds of blacks who want to "placate" the West and, I guess their white neighbours when the subject of reparations for slavery comes up.
"Well some Africans sold us" or the lie "It wasn't seen as wrong then."

Africans did sell Africans. Slavery was widespread in West Africa and many other places for centuries. Those are facts, not lies. They are not facts that in any way explain or legitimise slavery or the trans-Atlantic slave trade.

Carriemoo · 25/02/2014 12:51

My dissertation was on the denial of the holocaust and looking at the far right and the influence it is gathering.

I felt myself getting angry at having to read these books that claimed things didnt happen the way they were supposed to have done or a denial of the whole genocide.

It was a harrowing couple of months - i visited holocaust survivors and the holocaust library in London (very very good if anyone is interested in reading more) I looked over manuscripts and studied documents and the atrocities i read about still affect me now.

dreamingbohemian · 25/02/2014 12:52

Oxford if you haven't seen it, The Unloved by Arnost Lustig is very good for that subject

www.amazon.com/The-Unloved-Diary-Perla-Jewish/dp/0810113473

WilsonFrickett · 25/02/2014 12:53

YY dreaming I worked with a young German woman back in the 80's who was very into environmental matters, not really a big mainstream concern here at that time, and I once asked her why she bothered. Her response was 'as a German, I have an extra responsibility to do no harm' (paraphrased) which impressed me very much as a heedless 17 yo.

specialsubject · 25/02/2014 12:55

I have never heard of 'holocaust' being offensive to Jews. 'Shoah' is the Hebrew word, either will do.

YouTheCat · 25/02/2014 13:06

My ex's grandfather was in a commando squadron (can't remember which one). He was one of the first allied forces into Belsen. He was 6ft4, a regimental sgt major and built like a brick outhouse. The only time I ever saw him cry was talking about the day he walked into that camp and the smell of death. He went on to join the SAS and served in many conflicts and wars. He'd seen all manner of inhumanity and nothing affected him like that.

KissesBreakingWave · 25/02/2014 13:06

For those who're wondering about the difference between 'Holocaust' and 'Shoah' - Shoah is Hebrew for, allowing for the inexactitude of translation, 'catastrophe' and is a very good word for what was done.

Holocaust is a greek word for a sacrifice to the gods, made by burning an animal entirely to offer it to a god or gods - usually translated in the bible as 'burnt offering'. This was also done in the Jewish Temple: likening mass murder of Jews to one of their historic religious practises is distasteful and tactless at best.

mirtzapine · 25/02/2014 13:09

dreamingbohemian I grew up with a deep seated "hatred" of all things German and Nazi. It has affected me deeply in my adult life. If that's the comment you're referring to as being unfair to hold prejudices against Germans - then you are absolutely correct. In my mid 40's I suddenly encountered a situation where the prejudices that been ingrained in my youth, surfaced as an adult... it made me hyper aware of how things like anti-Semitism, Islamophobia can become ingrained as part of the environment that someone grows up in.

Take South Africa for example, that should be a nation that could have been a breeding ground for some of the worst atrocities that Africa could have seen... but it hasn't been. Yet Zimbabwe, that had a 10 year cooling off period after the end of minority rule, went through a genocidal period (Mugabe's people versus Nkomo's people).

I am aware of the criticisms of Goldhagen, just as I am aware of the criticisms of Irving's writing (having read both and a lot in-between). The fact that it happened and genocidal behaviours continue to this day, just show that we are not learning from history.

MrJollyLivesNextDoor · 25/02/2014 13:17

DP's grandfather perished at Auschwitz Sad

I've been there (pre-DS), it was so harrowing and sad. I want to go back again but I know I will really struggle with it after having DS.

I also think that holocaust denial should be illegal in this country.

TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy · 25/02/2014 13:28

It wasn't just the workers in the camps, the camps were most often placed near towns so that people could be used as slave labour in local businesses. That's why the whole rhetoric of people not knowing (perpetuated in media like Boy in the Striped Pyjamas) is so offensive to many, it ignores how easy it is to be pulled into and how hard it is to fight against all encompassing systems built upon oppression.

Why people deny it has filled volumes alongside other conspiracies theories that rely on being the victim of a global plot. There is also the issue that it, while it is taught a lot, it doesn't tend to be taught very well even with all the evidence and places and people working hard to do so and the entire time period and how it affects the world now isn't really done well. For example, Israel has been brought up a few times in the thread, but it is rarely taught that the land they were given was promised to multiple groups to get aid prior to and during the second world war and that is one of the major reasons for the current conflict there (rather than religion that fuels most of the rhetoric). The Jewish people were the second or third group it was promised to, before the rise of Nazism, and this not being taught fuels the holocaust deniers, anti-Semites, and anti-Israel groups as well as causes difficulty in discussing and making progress in the current major ethical problems within Israel when the Holocaust and the creation of the state of Israel are so interlinked.

There is also the major issues that the techniques and philosophy did not originate within Germany, much was gained from other Western countries (particularly the States, the segregation of the time was documented as an inspiration and much of the scientific techniques and practices comes from the States and the colonies of Western countries). I think it is hard for other countries to recognise and discuss the major parts they had to play in this so those parts are almost erased, much like they are in other atrocities to the point that the Holocaust itself is also at risk from the erasure that many in this thread have already heard from others getting more popular.

While Holocausts camps are kept up as a reminder, all the British concentration camps have been all but erased; while we must never forget what happened in the Holocaust, we are so often told that we need to "get over" the atrocities of that happened during colonization and occupations, even when they are within living memory, still have ramifications, and in some places are still happening.

King Leopold II's policies of genocide killed 10 million Congolese a few decades prior to WW2 and yet most people don't even know who he is, let alone put him alongside Hitler, and there was discussion of how little this genocide is covered even within Belgium - yet in Congo it has left a massive wound that still has major affects and those policies were also involved in Rwanda and a major part of the cause of the Rwanda genocide, yet Belgium's influence is rarely touched in the coverage. In the States, Canada, and Australia, more indigenous children are being taken now than in boarding school days and yet this is not just ignored, the mock dress up costumes (which were done to indigenous children during boarding school days to teach them how horrible their culture was and to "kill the savage", which was the entire reason boarding schools were created, they were designed to be genocidal, they planned both for the children to die physically, but to also to kill their cultures if they were to survive) is praised as child's play and used in advertising to invoke the "good old days" when even the boarding schools are in living memory. Being classified as animals is within living memory. Not only is this damaging to the groups involved, it damages the memory of Holocaust as it fuels the belief that these people commonly use that it only taught as much as it is because of who it involves. That needs to be broken by rebuilding many parts of the systems of education and media among others.

There needs to be better education and awareness of the Holocaust, how it fits in history and current events alongside other atrocities and how they affect the world today. There will always be those that need to play the victim in a shady global plot, but they will get less coverage and draw less people in if the wider systems within media, education, law, and so on didn't give them as much fuel for themselves and to convince others with.

GwendolineMaryLacey · 25/02/2014 13:33

Has anyone seen the cartoon of the Facebook chap in the paper today? If so, what do you think? I've been jumped on for being 'professionally offended' Hmm. Not on here btw.

BoffinMum · 25/02/2014 13:40

Mirtza, you see things so black and white, but do you realise there were whole swathes of Germany where people lived cheek by jowl, Jew and non Jew, and intermarried, etc? Over hundreds of years?

You should never lump together a whole nation like that as grounds for hate. Frankly, it's bloody racist.

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