To wonder why no one seems bothered by links to labour MPs + paedophile rights organisation?

[starlady]

The Mail has published new claims about Harriet Harman, Jack Dromey and Patricia Hewitt supporting The paedophile information exchange. Thought it was a rehash of an old story, but I've looked at the evidence published, and it looks as if harriet etc do have some explaining to do. I won't link to the Mail, but the Guardian gives a more nuanced point of view here

www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2014/feb/20/dailymail-harrietharman
What I'm finding puzzling is twitter is not bothered! And I haven't seen anything on mumsnet. Isn't anyone bothered? No wonder jimmy Saville et al got away with their actions. I am a labour voter myself, so I'm not trying to be partisan and stir up trouble, but the silence on this disturbs me.

Exactly MsCuddy.

That's right, MrsCuddy - ordinary people weren't confused at all. And the "culture" of the time was clear that child abuse was abhorrent. There was a teeny-tiny subculture which said it was A-OK.

so HH did not sign that document claig? i'd really like that clarified and the person who wrote it shouldn't be swanning out saying oh i'll look later if it amounts to slander.

She did not sign the age of consent one.

ok so:

HH DID NOT SIGN ANYTHING ASKING FOR A LOWERING OF THE AGE OF CONSENT. THE POST SAYING SHE DID IS FALSE AND ANY SUBSEQUENT POSTS RESONDING TO THAT ARE BASED ON THAT FALSE POST.

sorry for caps but it is only fair to make that absolutely clear.

even if mnhq delete the slanderous post the ones that follow would make it look like it was a fact.

Nor did she sign the other one. I have just checked.

"Daily Mail says

The NCCL submitted a document to parliament's Criminal Law Commission in 1976 arguing for the lowering of the age of consent potentially to as young as 10 and for incest to be legalised. This was submitted at a time when Dromey was on the executive and Hewitt was general secretary, and remained the official position when Harman became legal officer two years later in 1978. The document said: "Childhood sexual experiences, willingly engaged in, with an adult result in no identifiable damage." It also said it was "logical" but "not politically possible" that the age of consent be abolished altogether, and said therefore that the age of consent should be lowered to 14 – or 10 "provided it is demonstrated that consent was clearly given by the child".

Harman says

She never supported the age of consent being lowered to 10, although she did back the "equalisation of the age of consent (as set out in NCCL document titled Priorities and strategy for the executive committee June 1981) by making the age of consent the same for homosexual as well as for heterosexual sex". She says the document they refer to was written by NCCL in 1976 before she started to work there. It has not been specifically addressed by Dromey."

www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/feb/25/harriet-harman-daily-mail-argument-nccl-link-pie

I think both those posts should be removed.

No I'm sorry you are wrong. It was much more acceptable to leer at young girls, both in public, and in the media, than it is now. Why do you think Bill Wyman was never prosecuted? There was a perception that consensual sex was fine, simply "pushing the boundaries a bit.
And the dodgy scoutmaster type character, who was known to mess about with little boys, was simply someone your mum told you to keep away from. There was no concept of involving the police. As long as people chose their victims carefully (so as not to get a good kicking from an irate dad) no one was bothered. There were no vigilante mobs.

I am out walking my disabled dh, toddler and a dog, so apologies for not responding quicker. Got the info on the signature elsewhere, cannot easily locate it, but here is another one "The report was signed by Harriet Harman, who later went on to become a prominent figure in government and deputy leader of the Labour Party.[21]" from

this is the trouble imo - there is such irrational vitriol to HH (in reality to virtually all women who dare to step into the public arena to do something other than 'get their tits out for the lads') that it is hard to have a rational discussion.

it really undermines the DM and their agenda imo because they've been so consistently misogynistic and vitriolic towards her that it's hard to see this as anything other than the same.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent_reform

The BBC article below shows images of the protests by ordinary people and the reaction from the press at the time.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26352378

The mainstream media dont appear to have supported PIE or the cause in any form, which makes it even more confusing as to why a group like NCCL would have allowed them to stay with so much negative publicity

Sorry I messed this up but get proper link from home

you're just repeating slander bemybebe. slander is not ok no matter who you're walking with.

bemybebe, that must be wrong because Harman didn't join Liberty until 1978 and that was advocated by NCCL in 1976.

sorry not Liberty, the NCCL as it was then called.

Honeybadger: "of all the politicians implicated and involved in these child abuse scandals does a young lawyer who worked for an organisation that was affiliated to by PIE before she even worked there seem a prime target to go after?"

This is a key point. We know now that lots of men were abusing children in children's homes, schools etc in the 70s. We know that they were protecting by those in power (for example, David Steel protected Cyril Smith; we know Edwina Currie let Jimmy Savile run Broadmoor). Harman's culpability seems pretty small beer in comparison. She made an error of judgement. She has admitted it was an error of judgement. What else is there to say about it? Why not go after the truly culpable?

Exactly, HoneyBadger.

If newspapers want to devote money and space to investigations, let them take on some bigger targets now. Elm Tree Guest House? Who turned a blind eye to Cyril Smith's offending? Loads of people I expect. Hell, let's take another look at the whole Kincora Boys' Home affair. And there are plenty more. Look into PIE itself, for God's sake, and see who and what comes up.

She has not admitted an error of judgement.
She has expressed regret that PIE was linked to the NCCL.

She needs to choose sides. If she chooses to condemn PIE she should cooperate by providing information and being open about what happened between PIE and NCCL. Where else is the info to come from?

'Look into PIE itself, for God's sake, and see who and what comes up.'

This is what the press now seem to be doing.

On the vexed question of 1970s attitudes towards paedophilia, do any Welsh Mumsnetters remember a Trwynau Coch track called "Merched dan bymtheg"? (Girls under Fifteen). It was about the particular attractiveness of young girls, and finished with a snigger referring to "Girls under 14, girls under 13, girls under 12..."

Obviously it didn't have a huge amount of public attention, being in Welsh, though I think John Peel did play it once. But the amazing thing is that it was recorded at all - couldn't happen today, I think.

There's a blog post about it here, including a translation of the chorus:

isksp.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/y-trwynau-coch-1978-merched-dan-15-7-uk.html

The whole thing has been badly handled, as Roy Greenslade said in the Guardian.

"Harriet Harman took too long to apologise over Daily Mail's paedophile allegations

Harriet Harman issued an apology this morning for the fact that the National Council for Civil Liberties (NCCL) was linked in the 1970s and 1980s to the Paedophile Information Exchange (PIE).

In a statement issued by her office, which was quoted on BBC's Today programme this morning, she expressed regret for the ties between the two organisations, and regretted the existence of PIE. She also stressed that she had never supported paedophilia in any shape or form."

...

"The story should never have reached these proportions. Harman and Dromey should have acted sooner. I can understand why they didn't because the great majority of Labour politicians will have no truck with the Mail, believing it to be hopelessly prejudiced.

It is, of course, but that doesn't mean that one can afford to ignore all it publishes. It was a serious allegation and should have been taken seriously.

Incidentally, Hewitt, a former Labour minister who stood down as an MP in 2010, has yet to comment. Her silence is also unwise."

www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2014/feb/25/harrietharman-dailymail

Dromey and Hewitt have not been on TV, interviewed by the BBC about this. It was Harman who chose to do an interview with the BBC, and Harman joined NCCL in 1978, after PIE had already been affiliated to the NCCL.

PIE gained affiliate status in 1975.
Patricia Hewitt was General Secretary of the NCCL from 1974-1983.
Jack Dromey was on the executive from 1970-1979.

Right, I cannot find any links from reputable sources to back HH signing the document I referred to earlier, so I APOLOGIZE for giving the impression she did.

What I don't understand thought is how she joined this organisation if her views were so different from the campaigns they were pursuing at the time or very shortly prior, but i cannot argue this anymore as rl is very busy atm...