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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To want life in prison to mean life in prison

203 replies

drnoitall · 18/02/2014 09:33

For horrendously serious crimes.
Watching the news this morning and from What I understand a decision will be made today about whether or not England and Wales will uphold the decision for life in prison to mean whole of life in prison for people who commit the most abhorant crimes or to bow down to Europe who call it unlawful.
I'm astonished that a human rights lawyer used the word "degrading" in reference to prisoners reaching old age in prison during a whole life sentence.

AIBU to absolutely want life to mean life for people who commit vile crimes against people.

OP posts:
Chummiestwin · 18/02/2014 12:32

Exactly really, none of these hug a murderer supporters have even mentioned the human rights of the victim and their family, that is where my feelings lie

Triliteral · 18/02/2014 12:38

Even in Norway, those who are deemed to be a danger to society can have their sentences extended (multiple times if required). I think this is sometimes necessary.

SaucyJack · 18/02/2014 12:45

But saucy, surely the potential for rehabilitation lies within the person themself, not in the nature of the crime?

I think where the potential for rehab lies is purely academic tbh. Again, I don't actually think certain people should have the right to try for a second chance. Some offences (IMO) are so appalling that I don't think there can ever be a place for the perpetrator in civilized society again.

SauvignonBlanche · 18/02/2014 12:46

Who the fuck is 'hugging a murderer"? What a obscene turn of phrase.Shock
PG said earlier that People who don't respect the human rights of others don't deserve to have their own respected and I agree, everyone is deserving of this.

Treating criminals as human being in no may insults or devalues their victims and I greatly resent having such perverse value judgements ascribed to me. Angry

lljkk · 18/02/2014 12:52

Some places have very severe justice systems and very low crime rates. The deterrent is high enough.

The only good example I can think of is the PRC, and they still have horrendous corruption to deal with. Saudi? But high incidence of dv. Hmm... Please give more examples where this works well?

Chummiestwin · 18/02/2014 12:56

I don't Sauvignon I haven't taken some bodies life,what a silly thing to say. It's not like with like. what about the human rights of the victim that where my sympathies lie. Just because I do not respect the murderers human rights does not mean I want to kill them, just that I don't, and that they should be severely punishedp!

gordyslovesheep · 18/02/2014 12:58

'Hug a murderer' is a petty little label indicating a lost argument imho

People arguing for individual cases to be reviewed on an individual basis are not hugging, siding with or supporting murderers, they are supporting a fair justice system

gordyslovesheep · 18/02/2014 12:59

'Hug a murderer' is a petty little label indicating a lost argument imho

People arguing for individual cases to be reviewed on an individual basis are not hugging, siding with or supporting murderers, they are supporting a fair justice system

SauvignonBlanche · 18/02/2014 13:00

All humans have human rights, the clue is in the name.

SnowBells · 18/02/2014 13:05

YANBU.

I, too, think that once humans commit vile crimes, they cease to be humans in my eyes...

Why always try to be so politically correct?!? How many second chances do you want to give people??? You don't get a life sentence for a minor offence!

Beeyump · 18/02/2014 13:10

But what do you mean 'they cease to be humans'? What does that actually entail?

SauvignonBlanche · 18/02/2014 13:11

I don't think seeing all human beings as human being is 'politically correct', I do believe it is morally correct.

Chummiestwin · 18/02/2014 13:15

No not really Sauvignon when you commit a serious crim like murder you loose some of the liberties and freedoms that normal people have. No it's not a lost argument, what my argument is that in the most serious cases whole life tariffs should apply, seems perfectly reasonable to me!

BettySwollocksandaCrustyRack · 18/02/2014 13:20

Again, I don't actually think certain people should have the right to try for a second chance. Some offences (IMO) are so appalling that I don't think there can ever be a place for the perpetrator in civilized society again

Totally agree with that. Some cases are just so appalling that I don't believe the perpetrator should get another chance.......the boys that killed James Bulger for one, evil kids who will/have grown up to be evil adults.

Beeyump · 18/02/2014 13:24

I don't believe that you can label children as evil.

SnowBells · 18/02/2014 13:24

Morally correct? Is that some 'higher ground' thing? Those people showed no morals...

Not being a human = not being able to claim human rights. They likely took many other people's human right to live!

SnowBells · 18/02/2014 13:26

Beeyump

You are too nice. They were old enough to know right from wrong. 150 years ago, they wouldn't have been children.

SauvignonBlanche · 18/02/2014 13:26

No not really Sauvignon when you commit a serious crim like murder you loose some of the liberties and freedoms that normal people have.

Can you find me someone on this thread that disagrees with the above? I was suggesting that criminal should not be deprived of their freedom but they do not cease to be human.

neverthebride · 18/02/2014 13:27

For a very small number of people life should mean life but that should be subject to review in a civilized society.

And for those who feel harsher sentences cut reoffending - the USA has a notoriously harsh and often unjust criminal justice system including the death penalty in several states.

They also routinely give life without possibility of parole sentences to CHILDREN - the youngest being a 13 year old in 2001.

They also have one of the highest murder rates in the world and incarcerate more of their citizens than any other country. In 2011 2.9% of the entire adult population (juvenile offenders not included) were in prison, jail (prison and jail are separate things in the US) on parole or probation (US bureau of justice statistics).

Severe sentences and even the death penalty are neither a deterrent nor a solution.

BettySwollocksandaCrustyRack · 18/02/2014 13:27

I don't believe that you can label children as evil

Really?? I can't think of a word more suitable for those two boys! I watched a really interesting docu a few weeks ago on whether some people are born evil or whether circumstances make them go that way.....and some people were just born that way!

trampstamp · 18/02/2014 13:31

In regards to bloody Norway

They prison population has gone down why because they have changed the sentencing so people are still acting mad but they are simply not punishing them by sending them to jail

Personally I am unmoved by the plight of any criminal and it all boils down to the fact no one makes anyone go to jail you do have a choice not to kill a whole family

If I had my way in addition to whole life tariffs a fishmonger would do round twice a day slapping each inmate with a haddock

zebbidy · 18/02/2014 13:31

The point is about reviewing every once in a while because people change over a lifetime. It is about saying that however bad a crime it is possible to repent and transform into someone who would never repeat the crime. You should not be sentenced at 20 for a brutal murder and then chucked into a dark hole. The case should be looked at after 25 years or so and reviewed, maybe every 5 years, to see if you are still the same person capable of such a crime and not a different person.
They get to relive their lives yet their victims remain dead! Whether they have 'changed' or not the punishment should remain. The victims family has a forever sentence of grief, they don't get the chance of a review to bring back their loved ones.

Showy · 18/02/2014 13:33

Sauvignon, can you just stick a little post script to all of your comments on here with 'and Showy agrees with every word I say' on it? Saves me the bother of typing. Cheers!

Chummiestwin · 18/02/2014 13:33

I don't know when i have seen documentaries on murders, there seems something dead in the individual's eyes?0, something that most humans you don't see, they almost look subhuman. Well there must be seriously something wrong for somebody to murder in cold premeditated blood.

Goldenhandshake · 18/02/2014 13:34

The prisoners currently serving whole life tariffs are the likes of Jeremy Bamber, now in my eyes, someone who shoots dead his parents & 6 year old nephews and tries to blame his mentally ill sister in order to obtain his parents life insurance, is beyond hope or help, what benefit would reviewing his sentence have? Other than to waste more time and money, create more paperwork etc.

The same applies to other WLT prisoners, Dennis Nilsen, Rosemary West and so on. Monsters in the very truest sense of the word. As someone said upthread, I don't think it is unreasonable to think that out of 60 million UK residents, such a very small number are beyond redemption or rehabilitation.