To think Alex Salmond is in his own private dream world?

[SpineInABap]

Ok so Alex Salmond wants an independent Scotland, and sets out his ideas.

Then all three Westminster parties tell him - "no you can't share the pound and be independent as well, it would be too unstable. Did you see what happened in Europe when they tried to share a currency between different countries with different economic policies? And those countries were trying to become more united, and in this case the two countries would be trying to split apart!"

Then a guy from the European Union remarks that it won't be plain sailing for an Independent Scotland to join the EU, as all the other members will have to agree - and many won't as they don't want to encourage their own splinter states to start asking for independence as well.

So two fairly serious problems. And what is Alex Salmon's reaction? Basically to go "Ner ner ner, you're all being mean and nasty and you don't really mean it. I think that if we all vote yes for an independent Scotland, then you will change your mind and let us share the pound, and let us join the EU. You're bluffing, and so I'm not coming up with a plan for what would happen if Scotland voted yes and we realised that, oops no...you weren't bluffing".

How can anyone think this man does not sound a bit bonkers? I'm English, but if I was Scottish I would be very worried about voting for someone who thinks nothing of destabilising a whole economy just to make a Political point.

I was thinking more about my own decision in the car just now, and think for me it comes down to heart AND head.

I know an independent Scotland is perfectly possible - as the Nats like to point out, plenty of small countries survive and thrive. But for me, I was born British, grew up in England, married a Scot, now live in Scotland, we both work for English companies, and rely on international clients, working in sterling, for both our incomes. I am happy with the status quo, and would be more than happy for devo-max to come in and for the Scottish parliament to use their tax-raising powers (which of course they haven't dared do now) adn to spend it as the Scottish electorate choose.

And in the end I want to stay British, I don't want to have to choose between Scottish and UK passport.

Well, if you believe the Yes campaign has provided real evidence (not opinion) to back up their argument that we should leave the UK then please link to it. I'd genuinely love to read it.

My initial starting position was that I'd vote No but I wanted to find out if that gut instinct was correct and so I investigated independence, read (most of) the White Paper etc. If I could be persuaded that we could create some sort of Scandinavian utopia I might have changed my view. But nowhere have I found anything concrete - only hopes, assertions, beliefs etc etc. And I'm not prepared to vote for such a seismic, irreversible change on that basis.

So, please, if you have hard evidence, please link to it. Try and convince me.

would be more than happy for devo-max to come in

Unfortunately, Westminster took that option off the table :(

x post.

Sorry, what's been inaccurate? The questions / possibilities raised by the No campaign? AS has no answer to the currency question and clearly hadn't bothered to ask anyone in the EU what they might think about Scotland applying to be a member.

And sorry again, but I am NOT convinced by the Yes's answers at all! As many have said upthread, it is just a wish-list, with huge assumptions about how the rUK and the EU will treat Scotland

So, please, if you have hard evidence, please link to it. Try and convince me

Can you be more specific? Its just that there is an awful lot of information out there, and it will take me a while to dig up.

If you can give me a/some specific question/s I and the other cybernats will do our damndest to convince you :)

Tax raising powers are pointless if you don't have full control of revenue raised, raise taxes, money goes to Westminster then we get our pocket money back.

WWFD, Salmond wants an answer on the EU stuff, Westminster won't ask, only they are allowed to go to EU and get the definitive answer, they won't!

AS has no answer to the currency question

A formal currency union is the best option for Scotland and rUK. if rUK doesn't wish to do this then there are numerous other options. No option is perfect. They are all adequate. Eg

online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303775504579392760525978476?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702303775504579392760525978476.html

and clearly hadn't bothered to ask anyone in the EU what they might think about Scotland applying to be a member

The EU will only answer WM on this, and conveniently Westminster ain't asking....

The Fiscal commission did a report in the currency issue & currency union was the best option for UK & rUK.

That's what will be negotiated for following Independence.

www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0041/00419554.pdf

I agree we don't have full control, but if the Sc.Parl. did use this power, according to HMRC 'A proportion of the income tax paid by all Scottish taxpayers will go to fund spending by the Scottish Government.' (Which I agree is quite woolly.)

But even now it's not 'pocket money', it's roughly the same percentage as we pay in, according to the recent HMRC breakdown of the figures. I will dig them out after homework is done ...

But FFifer, after the last week's announcements from Westminster, that report is slightly irrelevant.

It's simplly not in the SNPs gift to promise a currency union.

And I still come back to the opinion we would all be better off staying part of the UK, with the ability to raise taxes for ourselves and therefore spend them as we would want. (I'm certainly no fan of some of the southern-centric decisions we live under.)

I better gracefully withdraw for now for homework/supper harmony

with the ability to raise taxes for ourselves and therefore spend them as we would want

If you are just referring to tax raising powers, then sure, we already have that. But we would not be able to spend them as we want as key areas like Welfare would stay reserved to Westminster.

If you are suggesting that in the event of a No vote, Westminster would offer us Devo Max I would say that is unfortunately very much off the table, as the UK gov refused to allow it on the ballot, and there have been plenty of mutterings about taking back devolved powers (and in fact this has already happened).

Sorry for the delay in replying - had to go and make the tea! I'd like to know -

In the event that a currency union cannot be agreed what currency will we use;
If we are allowed to become an EU member why does AS think that we wouldn't be subject to the conditions re border controls with rUK, use of the euro etc;
How will the loss of rUK university tuition fee income to Scotland's universities be made up;
Can AS guarantee that scottish universities will still be able to access Research Council funding;
How will our armed forces be made up? What if many members of the British Armed Forces don't wish to trv to a small scale, less active SDF (as seems to be the case)?
What impact will the loss of the UK EU rebate have on the Scottish budget?
As a new member of the EU wouldn't we be subject to all the conditions of the Schengen Agreement?

Leave it with me, at work now so will pop back later.
The Scottish Government have open meetings where you can go along & ask questions, think there's a few coming up, also Yes Scotland meetings depending on who is doing it might also be a good place to find out info.
Good questions.

in the meantime, this is a fun document for statisticians on a Saturday night

if I wasn't out tonight I actually would...my kind of thing

Firstly, why should Westminster do Salmond's work for him? There is nothing to stop YeSNP taking out their own legal advice.

Secondly, it sets a precedent for other groups.

Thirdly, what answer could the EU conceivably give? The entry requirements are already all clearly set out. Each member state will want to analyse an iScotland's precise status before agreeing or disagreeing.

How will the loss of rUK university tuition fee income to Scotland's universities be made up

'Following independence, the Scottish Government proposes to maintain the status quo by continuing our current policy of charging fees to students from the rest of the UK to study at Scottish higher education institutions'. The White Paper

This is technically illegal under EU law, but the White Paper claims that 'the unique and exceptional position of Scotland in relation to other parts of the UK, on the relative size of the rest of the UK, on the fee differential, on our shared land border and common language, on the qualification structure, on the quality of our university sector and on the high demand for places... will enable us to justify objectively the continuation of our current policy in a way which is consistent with the principles of free movement across the EU as a whole and which is compatible with EU requirements.

Can AS guarantee that scottish universities will still be able to access Research Council funding

In a word, no.

After independence this Government will seek to continue the current arrangements for a common research area and funding through established UK Research Councils, as we believe this would benefit both Scotland and the rest of the UK in supporting collaboration.

Scotland already contributes to the funding of the Research Councils through the UK tax system. With independence, we would intend to negotiate with the Westminster Government a fair funding formula for Scotland's contribution based on population share but taking reasonable account of the fact that the amount of research funding received by Scottish institutions from the Research Councils may reflect higher or lower levels of funding.

Any legal advice taken by Scottish gvt is not going to be as definitive as an answer from the EU. WM are still currently supposed to be looking after our interests too, why won't they ask so we can go into this referendum better informed?

How will our armed forces be made up? What if many members of the British Armed Forces don't wish to trv to a small scale, less active SDF (as seems to be the case)?

It's laid out here in the White Paper.

Of course, further development of Scotland's defence and security capabilities will be decided following the strategic review of security undertaken by the first elected Parliament and government of an independent Scotland.

'The Scottish Government respects the service of current personnel. We will ensure that all current service personnel will be eligible for a post in the Scottish defence forces, though they will not need to take it up'.

Obviously there has to be more negotiation.

What impact will the loss of the UK EU rebate have on the Scottish budget?

I'd love to see this analysed more, if anyone has any figures.

As a new member of the EU wouldn't we be subject to all the conditions of the Schengen Agreement?

Yep, technically. The White Paper argues that there are 'valid practical considerations of geography and working arrangements that predate the EU and Schengen' which would work in an iScotland's favour.

It also says that 'there are absolutely no grounds to believe that the EU would challenge Scotland remaining part of the CTA rather than joining the Schengen area. The EU has spent all of its 50 or so years of existence seeking to remove borders across the EU. The EU Treaties recognise that membership of the Common Travel Area is not compatible with membership of the Schengen area.'

I have to say, I don't really see the strength of this argument. I think Schengen might be an opt-out we'd have to lose, especially with Spain etc having their own separation anxieties.

It's a while since I last read it but I have to say that to me the overall tone of the white paper was one of an optimistic wish list. It was more like an upbeat manifesto than proper answers.

why won't they ask so we can go into this referendum better informed?

Westminster doesn't want Scottish independence and it has more of an obligation to keep the country together. To ask sets a precedent.

There is also no point in asking when a credible answer cannot be given. Each member state has to agree to a new entry. We don't know what an iScottish state would look like. Therefore, at this point, there is no answer that can be given other than the already clearly laid out entry requirements.

the overall tone of the white paper was one of an optimistic wish list

I agree with you, but what can we do when it's all we have to go on?