To think Alex Salmond is in his own private dream world?

[SpineInABap]

Ok so Alex Salmond wants an independent Scotland, and sets out his ideas.

Then all three Westminster parties tell him - "no you can't share the pound and be independent as well, it would be too unstable. Did you see what happened in Europe when they tried to share a currency between different countries with different economic policies? And those countries were trying to become more united, and in this case the two countries would be trying to split apart!"

Then a guy from the European Union remarks that it won't be plain sailing for an Independent Scotland to join the EU, as all the other members will have to agree - and many won't as they don't want to encourage their own splinter states to start asking for independence as well.

So two fairly serious problems. And what is Alex Salmon's reaction? Basically to go "Ner ner ner, you're all being mean and nasty and you don't really mean it. I think that if we all vote yes for an independent Scotland, then you will change your mind and let us share the pound, and let us join the EU. You're bluffing, and so I'm not coming up with a plan for what would happen if Scotland voted yes and we realised that, oops no...you weren't bluffing".

How can anyone think this man does not sound a bit bonkers? I'm English, but if I was Scottish I would be very worried about voting for someone who thinks nothing of destabilising a whole economy just to make a Political point.

Entitled to a Scottish Passport doesn't mean you have to have one.

'I have come across two instances of anti-English feeling - one funnily enough from an ex -Glaswegian/Celtic supporter'

probably of Irish extraction. No disrespect to the Irish intended, but a lot of anti-English feeling existed historically in the Irish communities in Glasgow and even Liverpool.

SnowAway Imagine if my DH left me but he wanted to keep a joint back account. I then told him I didn't want to, as I didn't think he was financially stable after leaving me, so he said that if he had to get his own back account then he wasn't going to help pay back the loan we both took out on our bank account?

That's a rather good analogy.

Alex Salmond and co are acting like spoilt children | Martin Kettle

gu.com/p/3mqkk

Martin Kettle might have been expected to be sympathetic to Salmond. The Guardian generally is as , much as I like it, it does tend to toe the line that everything is nicer, cuddlier and fairer in Scotland.

Fanny I don't know. Sturgeon didn't answer my question. Possibly my choice is a thistle emblazoned passport or no passport-in which case it'll be no passport as I don't want Scottishness forced on me, but who knows?

It's another issue the nationalists refuse to consider. Sturgeon wouldn't even acknowledge my preference is to have a British passport.

Scottish renewable energy is heavily subsidised. That might be justifiable. Scotland has the geography better suited to produce renewable energy and maybe there is a case for renewables being subsidised on purely economic grounds.

Sorry meant purely environmental grounds.

From The Guardian article you quoted Caitlin

"But a rather more persuasive explanation for the inadequacy of the SNP's engagement with serious issues this week is that it may suspect the game is up. The party has read the steadiness in the polls and realised it is not going to win a referendum that Salmond neither wanted nor expected until his shock landslide in 2011 forced him to hold it.

In that case, the long game may simply be an SNP core vote strategy, designed not to persuade but to maximise the anti-English, anti-British, anti-Tory, anti-neoliberal vote that the nationalists have successfully corralled in the past – and await another day."

Won't we be supposed to be able to have dual citizenship - but the latest is that it is only of the rUK government allow us to have one ....and they have indicated they might not agree to that? All Scottish people being able to have dual citizenship? So I wonder about my status...can I keep my British passport? And how does that stand with people that the Scottish government allow to naturailse - surely they won't be allowed a rUK passport too??? And my children and their children ....

And what is happening with consulates? Running in trouble abroad - will it be the nearest Scottish Embassy only for Scottish passport holders? How many will there be? Will there be as many - will they have the same authority/standing?

A whole host of things will be more expensive as there will have to be two of things we currently share (much more than the Scottish parliament duplication with education etc -which have been separate much longer) ...thinking things like defence, national security/anti-terrorism -and new 'management' - a whole raft of new civil servants to help organise things in government...an overseeing bodies for things like the fire brigade and police force ... and the BBC - whole new governing body...and replacement organisations for things like Ofcom and Ofgem....trading standards...advertising standards agency etc etc ...

I think there is a presupposition that rUK and Scotland will have close links...but if Scotland votes for independence? ...surely the links could become no closer than any two countries that share a border - like France and Germany? At times areas of the borders have belonged to each country but although those areas have strong links with one country they are governed by another?

But a rather more persuasive explanation for the inadequacy of the SNP's engagement with serious issues this week is that it may suspect the game is up.

I'm a bit of a pessimist, but I don't think it's over yet.

unlucky again more questions you will get no answers to. Just have blind faith it'll all be fine.

And what is happening with consulates? Running in trouble abroad - will it be the nearest Scottish Embassy only for Scottish passport holders? How many will there be? Will there be as many - will they have the same authority/standing?

The White Paper sets out a plan for embassies in: London; Beijing; Berlin; Brasilia; Canberra; Delhi; Dublin; Islamabad; Madrid; Moscow; Paris; Pretoria; Seoul; Tokyo; Warsaw; Washington and in view of the close historical and co-operation ties with Malawi, Lilongwe. Additional sites in Asia, the Middle East, South America, Africa and Europe will be identified.

Then, question 295. Under Scottish Government proposals to allow dual nationality, would people living in Scotland claiming dual Scottish/British nationality be allowed to call on the support of British embassies and consulates abroad?

As EU citizens, Scots would have the right to request consular assistance from all other member states, including the UK. If travelling on their British passport, people with dual nationality would be entitled to call on the support of the British embassy or consulate, just as a person with dual Scottish and Irish citizenship could choose to travel on their Irish passport and request assistance from the Irish embassy or consulate.

There's not much indication of where the money is coming to fund all of these things though.

And of course, we not even be in the EU!

Reading catlins posts has finally persuaded me to vote YES.

Dear goodness.

Hasn't the ability to have dual citizenship been called into question as well? I really will read the white paper - probably closer to the time, when I really need to make a decision what is best for my DCs...

BTW - I don't know about the Irish descent of the ex-Glaswegian/Celtic supporter - but he was uneducated and unemployed - a bit stereotypical really I was advised by someone (Scottish, local) that I should avoid and might have problems in some of the 'nicer' schemes ...but then I have never been brave enough to put that to the test ...

Sorry that comes across badly - didn't explain that very well -not sure I can - he was a complete idiot and there are people like that in all areas, countries, etc...and I don't for one minute think everyone - or even most people who live in Glasgow and support Celtic are like that...he just unfortunately reinforced a negative stereotype - really not a good advert for the nice people of Glasgow...

Unlucky the White Paper is a wish list. It does not give answers. The passport issue is not addressed. It is beyond the compression of the indies that one might not want a Scottish passport , why would you not?

And Twilight your simplistic analysis of it being vote SNP or Tory certainly reinforced my view of how misguided a yes vote is.

No dual nationality meaning no right to work in the EU for at least a few years, if you are a Scottish passport holder.

It just makes me so sad that this referendum is causing division where there was none before. In our extended family there are both Yes and No voters and already you can see that tensions are being created. It worries me that, no matter what the outcome is on 19 Sep, we will be left with these divisions for years to come. It's so sad and so pointless.

John I disagree I think debate within families is good. I don't understand the non acceptance of another's views.

My family is the most important thing, why let politics cause tensions and divisions? I'm not saying you are, but I don't understand it.

Caitlin your posts give me a headache, either I'm too thick to understand or you are talking a degree of mince, I know what I think.

Twilight, I agree debate is good - we love a good barney debate in our house! But I have found that, increasingly, the tone of the debate from some people is becoming aggressive and intolerant of any viewpoint but their own. My BIL is actually angry that I'm voting No.

I worry that wider Scottish society is going to be left with long term divisions which will take years to heal, if at all. No matter what the outcome a significant portion of the population are going to feel resentment against the other side.

But Twighlight it's not just not accepting another's views. We're discussing how Scotland is going to be for its residents for ever more!

If there's a Yes vote, it's going to effect all of us for at least a generation. There will be protracted and probably bad-tempered negotiations over who gets what. We will be untried and untested in the global banking markets. Our interest rates will probably be much higher. Jobs will go south. Those of us who are better off will be paying more tax.

And if the oil price falls, why would the oil companies want to keep the now difficult North Sea fields open?

We won't be in the EU for at least a few years. We will be in a similar position to the ex USSR states like Latvia and Lithuania, but without the great goodwill that smoothed their path into the EU.

And for those wondering about 'small' things like embassies, see http://www.scotsman.com/news/brian-wilson-why-we-ll-miss-our-man-in-havana-1-3315420 article by Brian Wilson in today's Scotsman. (He's obv. in the No camp).

'The Scottish Government’s White Paper on independence envisages Scottish representation in 50 countries, and they don’t include Taiwan, far less Cuba. South Africa, Malawi and Brazil get a mention but that’s it for Africa and South America. We are apparently to depend on other EU countries to provide services to our businesses and citizens where Scotland is not itself present. This is, I suppose, feasible. But on what rational grounds is it desirable? Why replace a global reach with a scatter-gun?

I am not naïve enough to suppose that this will concern fundamentalist Nationalists who do not give a toss what happens after independence so long as it is achieved. Many regard it as anathema to be represented as part of the United Kingdom in the first place.

They may even be disappointed by the White Paper’s straight-faced contention that “Scotland will be willing to co-locate with the UK in current premises”. Once again, the paradox of the independence case is that it is largely constructed upon assumptions about the goodwill of the state that they are so desperate to depart from.

In reality, the UK would continue to represent the commercial, diplomatic and consular interests of what was left of the UK. We would, instead, have turned our biggest commercial partner into our biggest competitor. We would have contracted out commercial, diplomatic and consular representation in three-quarters of the world’s countries.

All quite possible. But it really comes back to the question – why on earth would we want to do that?'

UK currently shares embassies anyway.
www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/sep/24/britain-canada-share-embassies
Ireland would have less but manages fine.
Everything can be done online these days anyway so probably no need to have so many embassies.
Would guess they would be an asset of the UK in which Scotland would be entitled to a share.

We will not be out the EU come independence anyway so no problem there.